5 ms·

Look, I've had the same experiences since I was a child and everything I am saying believe it or not in a way is the beliefs I've developed thinking about my is

Look, I've had the same experiences since I was a child and everything I am saying believe it or not in a way is the beliefs I've developed thinking about my issues (a coping mechanism even). >Being bored is a sign of lack of interest- being unable to focus anyways when it is boring but critically important, and you are choosing to try to focus on it but still can't would be a sign of ADHD. I mean do you know how many people have trouble doing something like exercising despite realizing how important it is? People fail to execute control in this area and others like it despite it being literally life threatening. Boredom, lack of interest, stimulation, focus, arousal are all related. One cannot expect someone to be focused for hours, every day on something one has no interest in, despite its seeming importance to an outside party, especially in regards to children. How do you expect a child to understand the importance of sitting quietly in class for 8 hours a day then going home and doing homework for a reward 20-25 years down the line that they can't comprehend? You're told it's important, but there is nothing within, nothing at the present or near future, that is enjoyable, fulfilling, in accomplishing these goals. Things are made far worse for example, if you as a child have social anxiety, and hate the school environment, and you drain most of your mental energy on just navigating socially, and come home hating your life. Speaking of my experiences, truth is there is much I loved to do, could focus on for hours, and sure as shit could have excelled at. I loved reading history books on my own for example, walking around in circles and thinking about god and evolution, and writing bonkers political essays as kid. I loved video games, trouble shooting things, and making things which is how I got into programming. And absolutely none of my interests were reflected in school, which is the SOLE criteria where any outside person (and in turn, me) would judge me, my ability to focus on "what's important". And in turn all these interests largely faded away, having no backing or relevance to my real world, and all I was left with is feeling inadequate, useless, and angry as soon as I thought about the "important" things I had to do. I still realized I knew I had to them yes, so I did the bare minimum the last minute, and it worked, so I kept doing the same. I've come to see that as a perfectly rational, functional thing to do. Now if I can't focus on something "important" like my job, I think "fuck it, it really is boring, let me see if there's something more interesting", and yay, it works. There is a whole another class of kids which I don't imagine are reflected in the ADHD diagnosis, those that just said "fuck this" early on, didn't even care to try, and became troublemakers. What I'd consider "critically important" executive function is things like are you able to run out your house in a fire, can you drive a car and turn left when you have to, not can you devote 8-10 hours of your life for 20 years to something you intrinsically don't want to do. All this aside, your or my feelings about how difficult it was in relation to other people mean nothing. My criticism is, scientifically, how do you measure any of this, how do you even know what the baseline is? How do you factor things like how much someone actually wants to do something, anxiety, anger, risk tolerance, addictions etc that all come into effect when a person makes a decision to sit down and do work? How do you control for person's interests vs their environmental needs? >This is absolute nonsense, it's like saying that getting an X-ray is harmful, because if people know their leg is broken, it might make them think they can't walk on it like normal. Not a fan of analogies. You can recognize your defects without the label of adhd. Most of what you've said is the benefits of stimulants, a sense of community, and a sense of acceptance. An adhd diagnosis helps with all these of course as they're locked in behind the diagnosis. I didn't say it's not helpful, I said it can be harmful in some ways, or at least, I don't think its the most ideal solution.

_yb2s 2y ago
Thanks for sharing. From your experience I suspect you have ADHD, which is why it seems to you like everyone experiences these things, when actually they don't. People without ADHD are able to force themselves to do things they have no interest in, just because it needs to be done. I'm not saying doing that a lot is at good thing, or a recipe for a rewarding life... but the fact remains that our society is structured around rewarding and pressuring people to do things they have no interest in for advancement in school, careers, etc. My experience of school was that it was totally ignorant of the fact that some people have interests and like to learn things, and was based almost entirely on the idea of forcing behaviors with the threat of negative consequences - and for better or worse it was able to force most kids, but not the ones with ADHD. Hyperfocusing on things you love is what you are describing in your second longer paragraph, and that is a key symptom of ADHD. In some instances it can be a huge advantage- I am a successful scientist because I hyperfocus on problems, and solve them. There are some real advantages to ADHD, along with many disadvantages, and ability to focus more deeply without distraction on things you are passionate about is a big advantage. It's common for people with ADHD to just say "fuck it" and decide not to do what they are supposed to do, but then often feel guilty about it... not really realizing it was never a choice- they still wouldn't have been able to do it if they hadn't said "fuck it" but instead said "I'm going to just double down and do this even though I hate it." They can do the bare minimum at the last minute because the massive stress and anxiety at the last minute acts exactly like a stimulant, and suddenly gives them more executive control. So how do you recognize ADHD scientifically? There is a pretty thorough system to clinically evaluate people that involves extensive question and answers about situations in your life, as well as interviews with multiple 3rd party people in your life. It's not perfect, but it's constantly being improved and is pretty good. Sure, an ADHD diagnosis could have some disadvantages, but overall it is a very serious and very treatable condition where the treatment has well documented improved outcomes. ADHD has a shockingly high mortality rate, and treatment with medication causes a drastic reduction in mortality from unnatural causes like accidental injury and suicide. I think you should check out the Hacking your ADHD podcast- https://www.hackingyouradhd.com/ https://www.hackingyouradhd.com/
- andoando 2y ago
  I have an ADHD diagnosis. I think the diagnostic criteria is a joke (and I know at least 3-4 people who have gotten a diagnosis because they just wanted stimulants, so its not as hard as you might think), and having thought about all these things for a long time now I just have an entirely different interpretation. I used to 100% believe and push the ideas you are talking about so grant me the belief that I am not coming from a place of ignorance or hatred. >People without ADHD are able to force themselves to do things they have no interest in, just because it needs to be done. I don't think this is substantiated, or at least is far too simplistic. What do you consider needs to be "done"? As I said for example, to me this would mean life critical things, like you press on the brakes when you need to, you run out of fire when there is one, not you focus hours a day on something for a goal 20 years out because it will make your life a better one in the future. Thats not something I "need" to do, its something I wish I wanted just to avoid the consequences of being berated, feeling inadequate, etc. And if I found that I am able to get away with it doing things with the least possible effort, then that seems like a perfectly rational and functional thing for an animal to do. I tell ya, if I could go back, what I'd do is give far less of a fuck. I think you have far more "executive control" than you think, I think its the narrow criteria, the one pressured by the existing societal/economic structure, you are evaluating against. How many people have trouble exercising for example, despite knowing how important it is? People fail to control their urges when it comes to their eating habits, sexual urges, their emotions, addictions and all manner of things. >My experience of school was that it was totally ignorant of the fact that some people have interests and like to learn things, and was based almost entirely on the idea of forcing behaviors with the threat of negative consequences - and for better or worse it was able to force most kids, but not the ones with ADHD. I don't know about that. I'd say in a class of ~500 people, maybe 50-75 were actually all that focused on succeeding, and most of them were from well off with wealthy families and good homes. The bottom 100-200 didn't give a flying fuck, and ditched classes, smoked weed in school, cheated as much as they could. The average person Id say maybe cared somewhat, but wasn't all that motivated and did what they had to do to get by. I only felt like I had adhd because I felt that I cared more than the rest of the kids, but wasnt able to do my work. But what was required was so far off who I am as a person that looking back its unreasonable that Id be able to have. I mean it would literally make me angry thinking about stupid the assignments were, thats all I could think about trying to do them. >Hyperfocusing on things you love is what you are describing in your second longer paragraph, and that is a key symptom of ADHD. In some instances it can be a huge advantage- I am a successful scientist because I hyperfocus on problems, and solve them. There are some real advantages to ADHD, along with many disadvantages, and ability to focus more deeply without distraction on things you are passionate about is a big advantage. So imagine you were in a different environment that catered to your interests or style of learning. Now all of a sudden you're motivated, succeeding and everyone wants to be like you. Do you feel troubled, wanting to go to a psychiatrist to be diagnosed? Imagine you put all the "normal" people into an environment void of social interaction, non concrete assignments, and whatever other characteristics of normal school, and evaluated them and berated them on the tasks you're able to focus on. Do you think they'd just be able to adapt? And would failing to do so would grant them a diagnosis? Another thing I found really surprising is that when I got my second job, all of a sudden I was insanely happy, motivated, focused at work and outside it. Then things changed again. I'd pretty sure Id get an ADHD diagnosis any year before that, but those two years? No way. I was more focused and motivated than now where I am taking 30mg of adderall every day. How could that be? The answer is a difference of a bunch of life factors, like the fact that my job now is boring as hell, I dont have much friends, Im not physically active as I used to, etc. These are all CRITICAL factors in focus, and its not something the diagnostic criteria is really even able to factor out. Now, it does make complete sense that people's brain vary and some us are wired differently, with some people being more risk tolerant (and thus not caring as much about future consequences), some people needing more stimulation to feel motivated, etc. But IMO, what we consider ADHD is far more complicated than a lack of "executive control"

_yb2s 2y ago

Thanks for sharing. From your experience I suspect you have ADHD, which is why it seems to you like everyone experiences these things, when actually they don't. People without ADHD are able to force themselves to do things they have no interest in, just because it needs to be done. I'm not saying doing that a lot is at good thing, or a recipe for a rewarding life... but the fact remains that our society is structured around rewarding and pressuring people to do things they have no interest in for advancement in school, careers, etc. My experience of school was that it was totally ignorant of the fact that some people have interests and like to learn things, and was based almost entirely on the idea of forcing behaviors with the threat of negative consequences - and for better or worse it was able to force most kids, but not the ones with ADHD. Hyperfocusing on things you love is what you are describing in your second longer paragraph, and that is a key symptom of ADHD. In some instances it can be a huge advantage- I am a successful scientist because I hyperfocus on problems, and solve them. There are some real advantages to ADHD, along with many disadvantages, and ability to focus more deeply without distraction on things you are passionate about is a big advantage. It's common for people with ADHD to just say "fuck it" and decide not to do what they are supposed to do, but then often feel guilty about it... not really realizing it was never a choice- they still wouldn't have been able to do it if they hadn't said "fuck it" but instead said "I'm going to just double down and do this even though I hate it." They can do the bare minimum at the last minute because the massive stress and anxiety at the last minute acts exactly like a stimulant, and suddenly gives them more executive control. So how do you recognize ADHD scientifically? There is a pretty thorough system to clinically evaluate people that involves extensive question and answers about situations in your life, as well as interviews with multiple 3rd party people in your life. It's not perfect, but it's constantly being improved and is pretty good. Sure, an ADHD diagnosis could have some disadvantages, but overall it is a very serious and very treatable condition where the treatment has well documented improved outcomes. ADHD has a shockingly high mortality rate, and treatment with medication causes a drastic reduction in mortality from unnatural causes like accidental injury and suicide. I think you should check out the Hacking your ADHD podcast- https://www.hackingyouradhd.com/ https://www.hackingyouradhd.com/

andoando 2y ago
I have an ADHD diagnosis. I think the diagnostic criteria is a joke (and I know at least 3-4 people who have gotten a diagnosis because they just wanted stimulants, so its not as hard as you might think), and having thought about all these things for a long time now I just have an entirely different interpretation. I used to 100% believe and push the ideas you are talking about so grant me the belief that I am not coming from a place of ignorance or hatred. >People without ADHD are able to force themselves to do things they have no interest in, just because it needs to be done. I don't think this is substantiated, or at least is far too simplistic. What do you consider needs to be "done"? As I said for example, to me this would mean life critical things, like you press on the brakes when you need to, you run out of fire when there is one, not you focus hours a day on something for a goal 20 years out because it will make your life a better one in the future. Thats not something I "need" to do, its something I wish I wanted just to avoid the consequences of being berated, feeling inadequate, etc. And if I found that I am able to get away with it doing things with the least possible effort, then that seems like a perfectly rational and functional thing for an animal to do. I tell ya, if I could go back, what I'd do is give far less of a fuck. I think you have far more "executive control" than you think, I think its the narrow criteria, the one pressured by the existing societal/economic structure, you are evaluating against. How many people have trouble exercising for example, despite knowing how important it is? People fail to control their urges when it comes to their eating habits, sexual urges, their emotions, addictions and all manner of things. >My experience of school was that it was totally ignorant of the fact that some people have interests and like to learn things, and was based almost entirely on the idea of forcing behaviors with the threat of negative consequences - and for better or worse it was able to force most kids, but not the ones with ADHD. I don't know about that. I'd say in a class of ~500 people, maybe 50-75 were actually all that focused on succeeding, and most of them were from well off with wealthy families and good homes. The bottom 100-200 didn't give a flying fuck, and ditched classes, smoked weed in school, cheated as much as they could. The average person Id say maybe cared somewhat, but wasn't all that motivated and did what they had to do to get by. I only felt like I had adhd because I felt that I cared more than the rest of the kids, but wasnt able to do my work. But what was required was so far off who I am as a person that looking back its unreasonable that Id be able to have. I mean it would literally make me angry thinking about stupid the assignments were, thats all I could think about trying to do them. >Hyperfocusing on things you love is what you are describing in your second longer paragraph, and that is a key symptom of ADHD. In some instances it can be a huge advantage- I am a successful scientist because I hyperfocus on problems, and solve them. There are some real advantages to ADHD, along with many disadvantages, and ability to focus more deeply without distraction on things you are passionate about is a big advantage. So imagine you were in a different environment that catered to your interests or style of learning. Now all of a sudden you're motivated, succeeding and everyone wants to be like you. Do you feel troubled, wanting to go to a psychiatrist to be diagnosed? Imagine you put all the "normal" people into an environment void of social interaction, non concrete assignments, and whatever other characteristics of normal school, and evaluated them and berated them on the tasks you're able to focus on. Do you think they'd just be able to adapt? And would failing to do so would grant them a diagnosis? Another thing I found really surprising is that when I got my second job, all of a sudden I was insanely happy, motivated, focused at work and outside it. Then things changed again. I'd pretty sure Id get an ADHD diagnosis any year before that, but those two years? No way. I was more focused and motivated than now where I am taking 30mg of adderall every day. How could that be? The answer is a difference of a bunch of life factors, like the fact that my job now is boring as hell, I dont have much friends, Im not physically active as I used to, etc. These are all CRITICAL factors in focus, and its not something the diagnostic criteria is really even able to factor out. Now, it does make complete sense that people's brain vary and some us are wired differently, with some people being more risk tolerant (and thus not caring as much about future consequences), some people needing more stimulation to feel motivated, etc. But IMO, what we consider ADHD is far more complicated than a lack of "executive control"