3 ms·

Ask HN: Do companies avoid hiring programmers who would rather do indie dev?

17 points by amichail 2y ago

And if so, how can they tell?

eschneider 2y ago
When you're interviewing with companies, try and give them the impression that the thing you want to be doing now is the thing they're looking to have done. Assuming you're like the rest of us and have material needs and bills to pay, it's not even a lie. :)
- tkiolp4 2y ago
  I always assumed this, What’s the point of applying for a job saying something you know the hiring manager won’t like? I mean, sure we all have principles and the like, but if you’re applying for a job is because you want that job. Another thing is to quit if you find that the job is not what you expected, that’s fine.
- muzani 2y ago
  There's plenty of people going around applying saying that their mission matches with whatever the job description is, and they're willing to pay ChatGPT to convince you.
atmega32 2y ago
As a hiring manager, I can say that we don't want to hire the mythical 'rock stars', the kind of know-it-alls that do-it-all. We want people who will be great team players and help build a collaborative culture. Not that 'rock stars' cannot be team players, but there is certainly that risk.
- kalaka 2y ago
  See because of these kind of people you need to act dumb to get a job. These cases need people to take orders and don't need someone with brains. Act stupid. Get that job. Be silent in meetings and pay attention to the words that circulate around. These managers find its risk to hire someone who can figure out what bs These play with their boss.
  - JohnFen 2y ago
    You don't have to act dumb (and you shouldn't). You just have to not act like a "rock star". The most brilliant devs I've ever met were people nobody would call "rock stars". They were collaborative team players.
    - kalyantm 2y ago
      This, exactly this. I know so many people who are "above average" developers that I would love to work with because they are nice, collaborative people that are a joy to work with. The biggest problems we've faced are with these so called "10x developers", who do get stuff done, but are a total pain in the a* to deal with!
    - meneer_oke 2y ago
      > The most brilliant devs I've ever met were people nobody would call "rock stars" That sparks my interest. Could you elaborate on what constitutes a brilliant developer from your perspective?
      - paulcole 2y ago
        The Rock Star will say, “I will do these 10 things by next Friday.” And then next Friday rolls around and 8 of them are done. This repeats week after week, but I can never tell which 8 will get done. They’re boastful and proud that they got a lot done but the rest of the team can never count on them to get any specific thing done. The other person will say “I will do these 5 things by next Friday.” And then next Friday all 5 are done. And they repeat this week after week after week. Give me the second person every time.
        meneer_oke 2y ago
        I agree with your scenario, but I wouldn't consider someone who consistently under-delivers a "rock star." This is why defining terms is important. For me, a rockstar is a developer who is just further along, who likes to program in their own time, who reads Hacker News, and builds projects on the weekends. Within 5 years, that person will be much further ahead than the rest and will spot pitfalls, security, and performance issues simply because they have encountered them before. However, sharing that information could lead to that person being called a "rockstar" and problematic, hampering "progress".
- caprock 2y ago
  What is the relationship between indie hackers / devs and rock stars in your view? Are you implying they are the same? Different?
kalaka 2y ago
Don't tell. Just apply for job.
JohnFen 2y ago
One of the things I always have to explain when applying for a new job is about the substantial number of years I've run my own software businesses. The interviewer's fear is always the same: that if I take the position, I'll be leaving shortly in order to start another venture. I explain (and point out in my work history) that isn't the case. I don't take permanent positions with the idea that they're temporary. If I wanted a temporary position, I'd do contract work instead. I don't know if this aspect of my work history has ever cost me a job, but if so, it doesn't matter. I land jobs anyway.
illuminant 2y ago
Hiring managers want reliable results. If a candidate does not have the look for months and months and months of consistent output (that's soft slang for years), it really doesn't matter how good they are. Real programmers hiring more team members see side developments as a strength, they only want their work to get done.
shouche 2y ago
Yes, some companies avoid hiring programmers who prefer indie work. They worry these programmers might not fully commit to their job or could develop competing products. Others fear they might prioritize their indie projects over company work.
tkiolp4 2y ago
In my experience, companies won’t google you (hell, sometimes they barely will read your cv), so if you don’t explicitly say that you do indie dev, they won’t ever find out (what you do in your private time is not their business anyway)
muzani 2y ago
Many companies don't really have the luxury of picking. A full time programmer, even one who sticks around for 8 months or so, is far better than a contractor. There's also the possibility they hang around for years. Someone who's doing indie work on the side, well, they're upskilling themselves at least. And they're more likely to be incentivized by more time off or less work than they are by more money, so it's not always bad.
sloaken 2y ago
If I hire someone who wants to be an indie dev, how much of their side projects are they going to do instead of the work I need them to do? I have been on 2 teams where a member had a 'tech' side business. They spent each seemed to spend 4 to 8 hours a week on their side hustle, while supposedly working at their job. I currently have a co-worker (we do not work on a team together), who has a side business with his family doing indie games, but I have never seen him work on it at work.
the__alchemist 2y ago
It's how I got my programming job with no school or employment background. I built popular software used in my prev community (flight sched and training). Now have a software job.
MELEKE 2y ago
[dead]
TASHANDIARISHA 2y ago
[dead]
throwaway211 2y ago
Some people are afraid of (what they perceive as) mavericks. Some embrace us. Embrace yourself.

17 points by amichail 2y ago

And if so, how can they tell?

When you're interviewing with companies, try and give them the impression that the thing you want to be doing now is the thing they're looking to have done. Assuming you're like the rest of us and have material needs and bills to pay, it's not even a lie. :)

tkiolp4 2y ago
I always assumed this, What’s the point of applying for a job saying something you know the hiring manager won’t like? I mean, sure we all have principles and the like, but if you’re applying for a job is because you want that job. Another thing is to quit if you find that the job is not what you expected, that’s fine.
muzani 2y ago
There's plenty of people going around applying saying that their mission matches with whatever the job description is, and they're willing to pay ChatGPT to convince you.

atmega32 2y ago

As a hiring manager, I can say that we don't want to hire the mythical 'rock stars', the kind of know-it-alls that do-it-all. We want people who will be great team players and help build a collaborative culture. Not that 'rock stars' cannot be team players, but there is certainly that risk.

kalaka 2y ago
See because of these kind of people you need to act dumb to get a job. These cases need people to take orders and don't need someone with brains. Act stupid. Get that job. Be silent in meetings and pay attention to the words that circulate around. These managers find its risk to hire someone who can figure out what bs These play with their boss.
- JohnFen 2y ago
  You don't have to act dumb (and you shouldn't). You just have to not act like a "rock star". The most brilliant devs I've ever met were people nobody would call "rock stars". They were collaborative team players.
  - kalyantm 2y ago
    This, exactly this. I know so many people who are "above average" developers that I would love to work with because they are nice, collaborative people that are a joy to work with. The biggest problems we've faced are with these so called "10x developers", who do get stuff done, but are a total pain in the a* to deal with!
  - meneer_oke 2y ago
    > The most brilliant devs I've ever met were people nobody would call "rock stars" That sparks my interest. Could you elaborate on what constitutes a brilliant developer from your perspective?
    - paulcole 2y ago
      The Rock Star will say, “I will do these 10 things by next Friday.” And then next Friday rolls around and 8 of them are done. This repeats week after week, but I can never tell which 8 will get done. They’re boastful and proud that they got a lot done but the rest of the team can never count on them to get any specific thing done. The other person will say “I will do these 5 things by next Friday.” And then next Friday all 5 are done. And they repeat this week after week after week. Give me the second person every time.
      - meneer_oke 2y ago
        I agree with your scenario, but I wouldn't consider someone who consistently under-delivers a "rock star." This is why defining terms is important. For me, a rockstar is a developer who is just further along, who likes to program in their own time, who reads Hacker News, and builds projects on the weekends. Within 5 years, that person will be much further ahead than the rest and will spot pitfalls, security, and performance issues simply because they have encountered them before. However, sharing that information could lead to that person being called a "rockstar" and problematic, hampering "progress".
caprock 2y ago
What is the relationship between indie hackers / devs and rock stars in your view? Are you implying they are the same? Different?

kalaka 2y ago

Don't tell. Just apply for job.

JohnFen 2y ago

One of the things I always have to explain when applying for a new job is about the substantial number of years I've run my own software businesses. The interviewer's fear is always the same: that if I take the position, I'll be leaving shortly in order to start another venture. I explain (and point out in my work history) that isn't the case. I don't take permanent positions with the idea that they're temporary. If I wanted a temporary position, I'd do contract work instead. I don't know if this aspect of my work history has ever cost me a job, but if so, it doesn't matter. I land jobs anyway.

illuminant 2y ago

Hiring managers want reliable results. If a candidate does not have the look for months and months and months of consistent output (that's soft slang for years), it really doesn't matter how good they are. Real programmers hiring more team members see side developments as a strength, they only want their work to get done.

shouche 2y ago

Yes, some companies avoid hiring programmers who prefer indie work. They worry these programmers might not fully commit to their job or could develop competing products. Others fear they might prioritize their indie projects over company work.

tkiolp4 2y ago

In my experience, companies won’t google you (hell, sometimes they barely will read your cv), so if you don’t explicitly say that you do indie dev, they won’t ever find out (what you do in your private time is not their business anyway)

muzani 2y ago

Many companies don't really have the luxury of picking. A full time programmer, even one who sticks around for 8 months or so, is far better than a contractor. There's also the possibility they hang around for years. Someone who's doing indie work on the side, well, they're upskilling themselves at least. And they're more likely to be incentivized by more time off or less work than they are by more money, so it's not always bad.

sloaken 2y ago

If I hire someone who wants to be an indie dev, how much of their side projects are they going to do instead of the work I need them to do? I have been on 2 teams where a member had a 'tech' side business. They spent each seemed to spend 4 to 8 hours a week on their side hustle, while supposedly working at their job. I currently have a co-worker (we do not work on a team together), who has a side business with his family doing indie games, but I have never seen him work on it at work.

the__alchemist 2y ago

It's how I got my programming job with no school or employment background. I built popular software used in my prev community (flight sched and training). Now have a software job.

MELEKE 2y ago

[dead]

TASHANDIARISHA 2y ago

[dead]

throwaway211 2y ago

Some people are afraid of (what they perceive as) mavericks. Some embrace us. Embrace yourself.