4 ms·

Could you explain how this can be used as a political weapon? Both parties in the U.S. seem quite happy with the perennial Mexican border topic that is used to

by nmhdan 2y ago

Could you explain how this can be used as a political weapon? Both parties in the U.S. seem quite happy with the perennial Mexican border topic that is used to distract from other issues. I think neither party actually wants to stop anything. Republican farmers in the south need the labor, urban Democrats need voters (or so they think) and virtue signalling.

thinkingtoilet 2y ago
>urban Democrats need voters Immigrants can't vote. Let's just make that clear because it's a common right-wing talking point that is provably wrong and steeped in bigotry.
- qaq 2y ago
  Well it's being helped by the talking point of requiring ID to vote is racist
  - javagram 2y ago
    The ID voting requirements are about keeping marginalized American citizens from voting (seniors, poor people who are bad at managing their documents, etc). Studies have been done of before/after ID requirements have been added in various states and there’s no indication that illegal aliens were taking advantage. Maybe a few anecdotes of people with a green card who were confused about the requirements - the illegally present usually try to stay as far from the government as they can.
    - qaq 2y ago
      That does not sound even remotely plausible there are way more mundane activities that all require IDs.The study like that is purely meaningless because you can not control for all the other variables of societal change in the same time frame. I can take any other variable and claim it's the cause of the decline. Also I spent most of my life in Europe in way more left leaning countries than US and this is not even remotely on the radar of anyone.
  - trealira 2y ago
    It's also being helped by the fact that the right wing has a history of attempting to restrict votes, from mass purging of voter rolls without telling people, to closing voting sites such that voting in-person requires traveling farther and waiting longer in line, to making it illegal to hand out food or water to people at voting sites (in Georgia), to having gutted the VRA in 2013 with Shelby v Holder, which is often what allows them to do this in the first place. I have no faith voter ID laws wouldn't be used simply to further suppress votes in states where Republicans control the state legislature; and yes, often in racist ways, because non-white people tend to support the left more than white people, so suppressing their votes (often those of rural black or Hispanic voters) is beneficial to Republicans.
    - seneca 2y ago
      And the Democratic party has a history of systematically rigging elections. The Chicago machine and Tammany hall only worked one way. The presidential election was notoriously rigged for JFK by his influential criminal father. There's very good reasons historically to argue either side of that opinion.
  - itishappy 2y ago
    How? > In the remaining 14 states and D.C., voters can cast a ballot in person on Election Day without showing an ID document. These states have "non-documentary" ID requirements, meaning voters must verify their identity in other ways, such as by signing an affidavit or poll book, or by providing personal information. All states have procedures for challenging voter eligibility. https://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/voter-verification-without-id-documents https://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/voter-verificat...
- Mountain_Skies 2y ago
  The census counts those living in the US regardless of their immigration status. That census count is used to determine Congressional representation. Plus, anyone born in the US, regardless of immigration status of their parents, is a legal citizen and in eighteen years, a voter. Politicians might not be able to see past the next election cycle, but political parties play the long game (e.g. "the Southern Strategy")
- mynameishere 2y ago
  I think he's referring to illegal aliens voting illegally (which does happen sometimes) or, once they become legal through whatever means, they will become reliable Democrats. Or, their children will do the same. One way or the other, replacement-Americans tend to support the left. Always have. It's proveable. Also, these sorts of shenanigans: https://www.npr.org/2021/12/15/1064385999/new-york-city-will-allow-legal-non-citizens-to-vote-in-local-elections https://www.npr.org/2021/12/15/1064385999/new-york-city-will...
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    If you all don't want "replacement-Americans" voting, who'll be left on the rolls, the Lakota? (who did their own Dunki over the Bering, back in the day) I have ancestors who were in the Colonies before the Constitution, and once upon a time, they were also FOB.
- thayne 2y ago
  Their children born in the US can, once they are old enough. But I'm a little doubtful politicians are thinking that long term. The real long term solution would be to make legal immigration easier and cheaper. But neither party seems to be pushing very hard for that.
WesolyKubeczek 2y ago
And yet shouting about evil immigrants taking your jobs, living on your welfare (even if it's contradictory), mugging you in a dark alley, raping people left and right seems quite a successful tale that empowers the most atrocious parts of the far-right political spectrum. Deglobalize, polarize, institute the rule of the power as opposed to the rule of law seems to be the message. The consequence, though, would be overall weakening of the states, erosion of trust, and making the defence of all the values our predecessors have already paid in blood for even more toothless. I think your statement puts the cart before the horse, though. Both parties are "ok" with the status quo not because they necessarily collude to create it, but they are full to the brim with opportunists who use the status quo to their advantage. I don't think there is major political will to actually change anything, but if change forcefully comes any other way, they will happily try to ride any wave to their advantage. I don't believe this mode of operation is going to change much while the facto regime in the US is gerontocracy which is also all about risk aversion. Oh, and quite possibly a drive to protect big money at all costs.

by nmhdan 2y ago

thinkingtoilet 2y ago

>urban Democrats need voters Immigrants can't vote. Let's just make that clear because it's a common right-wing talking point that is provably wrong and steeped in bigotry.

qaq 2y ago
Well it's being helped by the talking point of requiring ID to vote is racist
- javagram 2y ago
  The ID voting requirements are about keeping marginalized American citizens from voting (seniors, poor people who are bad at managing their documents, etc). Studies have been done of before/after ID requirements have been added in various states and there’s no indication that illegal aliens were taking advantage. Maybe a few anecdotes of people with a green card who were confused about the requirements - the illegally present usually try to stay as far from the government as they can.
  - qaq 2y ago
    That does not sound even remotely plausible there are way more mundane activities that all require IDs.The study like that is purely meaningless because you can not control for all the other variables of societal change in the same time frame. I can take any other variable and claim it's the cause of the decline. Also I spent most of my life in Europe in way more left leaning countries than US and this is not even remotely on the radar of anyone.
- trealira 2y ago
  It's also being helped by the fact that the right wing has a history of attempting to restrict votes, from mass purging of voter rolls without telling people, to closing voting sites such that voting in-person requires traveling farther and waiting longer in line, to making it illegal to hand out food or water to people at voting sites (in Georgia), to having gutted the VRA in 2013 with Shelby v Holder, which is often what allows them to do this in the first place. I have no faith voter ID laws wouldn't be used simply to further suppress votes in states where Republicans control the state legislature; and yes, often in racist ways, because non-white people tend to support the left more than white people, so suppressing their votes (often those of rural black or Hispanic voters) is beneficial to Republicans.
  - seneca 2y ago
    And the Democratic party has a history of systematically rigging elections. The Chicago machine and Tammany hall only worked one way. The presidential election was notoriously rigged for JFK by his influential criminal father. There's very good reasons historically to argue either side of that opinion.
- itishappy 2y ago
  How? > In the remaining 14 states and D.C., voters can cast a ballot in person on Election Day without showing an ID document. These states have "non-documentary" ID requirements, meaning voters must verify their identity in other ways, such as by signing an affidavit or poll book, or by providing personal information. All states have procedures for challenging voter eligibility. https://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/voter-verification-without-id-documents https://www.ncsl.org/elections-and-campaigns/voter-verificat...
Mountain_Skies 2y ago
The census counts those living in the US regardless of their immigration status. That census count is used to determine Congressional representation. Plus, anyone born in the US, regardless of immigration status of their parents, is a legal citizen and in eighteen years, a voter. Politicians might not be able to see past the next election cycle, but political parties play the long game (e.g. "the Southern Strategy")
mynameishere 2y ago
I think he's referring to illegal aliens voting illegally (which does happen sometimes) or, once they become legal through whatever means, they will become reliable Democrats. Or, their children will do the same. One way or the other, replacement-Americans tend to support the left. Always have. It's proveable. Also, these sorts of shenanigans: https://www.npr.org/2021/12/15/1064385999/new-york-city-will-allow-legal-non-citizens-to-vote-in-local-elections https://www.npr.org/2021/12/15/1064385999/new-york-city-will...
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  If you all don't want "replacement-Americans" voting, who'll be left on the rolls, the Lakota? (who did their own Dunki over the Bering, back in the day) I have ancestors who were in the Colonies before the Constitution, and once upon a time, they were also FOB.
thayne 2y ago
Their children born in the US can, once they are old enough. But I'm a little doubtful politicians are thinking that long term. The real long term solution would be to make legal immigration easier and cheaper. But neither party seems to be pushing very hard for that.

WesolyKubeczek 2y ago

And yet shouting about evil immigrants taking your jobs, living on your welfare (even if it's contradictory), mugging you in a dark alley, raping people left and right seems quite a successful tale that empowers the most atrocious parts of the far-right political spectrum. Deglobalize, polarize, institute the rule of the power as opposed to the rule of law seems to be the message. The consequence, though, would be overall weakening of the states, erosion of trust, and making the defence of all the values our predecessors have already paid in blood for even more toothless. I think your statement puts the cart before the horse, though. Both parties are "ok" with the status quo not because they necessarily collude to create it, but they are full to the brim with opportunists who use the status quo to their advantage. I don't think there is major political will to actually change anything, but if change forcefully comes any other way, they will happily try to ride any wave to their advantage. I don't believe this mode of operation is going to change much while the facto regime in the US is gerontocracy which is also all about risk aversion. Oh, and quite possibly a drive to protect big money at all costs.