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Nature absolutely does not have an equivalent because nature (sans humans) does not produce the scale nor types of refuse that we do. Superficial similarities l

Nature absolutely does not have an equivalent because nature (sans humans) does not produce the scale nor types of refuse that we do. Superficial similarities like “sometimes it smells bad too!” are complete red herrings.

lazide 2y ago
Or you just have no idea what you’re talking about, because you live in a nice cushy region. [https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/malaria https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/malaria] - kills over half a million people a year. [https://science.utah.edu/news/toxic-dust-hot-spots/][https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/valley-fever/symptoms-causes/syc-20378761] https://science.utah.edu/news/toxic-dust-hot-spots/][https:/... [https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/chagas-disease/symptoms-causes/syc-20356212# https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/chagas-diseas...] [https://www.un-igrac.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/Rapport%201%20-%20Arsenic%20online.pdf https://www.un-igrac.org/sites/default/files/resources/files...] ground water arsenic levels, nice maps start on page 5. [https://sustainability.stanford.edu/news/new-study-allows-regional-prediction-uranium-groundwater https://sustainability.stanford.edu/news/new-study-allows-re...] All are driven by these factors, and there are many many more. And that isn’t even factoring in things like natural ground water Arsenic and Uranium contamination which poisons millions in many areas. Near as I can tell, you’re just living in areas that are the equivalent of ‘the good side of the tracks’. If you think Nature works at smaller scales than man, you’ve never spent time in Nature. Can we make things worse? Sure! But there are also plenty of real, large scale, natural hazards out there.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  I don’t know what or who you think you’re arguing against, but it ain’t me. First your response to “the non-human environment is an astoundingly efficient circular system” was “nuh uh, nature makes things that smell bad and are ugly too!” Now your response to “nature doesn’t produce refuse of the same type or scale as humans” (clearly referring to the massive amounts of obscenely stable and probably-toxic-to-most-creatures plastic that we produce) is “MALARIA EXISTS, rich guy!” Take a breath. Try to find where I said “nature works on smaller scales than humans.” When you find a line that looks similar but says something quite different, get curious about that difference! That’s where you’ll find what I’m actually saying.
  - lazide 2y ago
    Same to you, apparently. Edit: oh, but you had to change your comment completely once you actually read things. What a ridiculous person. Swamps naturally breed malaria, among other diseases, similar to how dumps breed Rats. Swamps are where rivers and the like end up washing all the detritus. Malaria (estimated) has killed more humans than any other cause. Living anywhere near a swamp is the natural equivalent of living near a dump burning tires constantly, but provably more lethal than the dump. Without massive effort to control the vector anyway. Swamps are as natural as it gets. How many hundreds of thousands of people are killed by plastic waste in dumps per year again? Zero? Except for maybe some rando who chokes on something? And again, that is without discussing natural arsenic and uranium water contamination. Oh, and I forgot about Radon [https://images.app.goo.gl/frMD3KoKXdssTgtM9 https://images.app.goo.gl/frMD3KoKXdssTgtM9]. We get worked up about human hazards because humans ‘should know better’, and are at least nominally within our control. Nature just DGAF, and works at scales we can barely comprehend most of the time. And is often completely outside of our control. So apparently some people seem to think the hazards don’t exist or aren’t clearly far worse in many cases? After all, how much man made radioactive gas do you need to check if you are breathing in at home? And yes, all of this is very pertinent to the ‘kumbaya nature is self sustaining and all loving and takes care of everything’ comment. Nature is, of that there is no question, at least. The rest is up for debate/interpretation. I love nature - but let’s not pretend it can be pretty stabby sometimes.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - titzer 2y ago
      Worldwide ocean plastic kills vast quantities of marine life. It's an enormous problem that affects entire ecosystems. Malaria is a complete red herring. "you just have no idea what you’re talking about" is just plain rude. No one comes here for that, so you'll have to stop doing that to avoid being ignored.
      - lazide 2y ago
        So do red tides. Oxygen depletion zones. Population imbalances leading to mass die offs. Huge oil spills. Etc. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK220695/#:~:text=Assuming%20the%20seep%20scales%20are,to%20200%2C000%20tonnes%20per%20year https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK220695/#:~:text=Assumi...).] which we have records of for all of recorded history (and fossil records of from far before that). I’m not saying plastic is good to be dumping in the ocean. It isn’t! Oil spills are bad! Dumping massive quantities of fertilizer and making oxygen depleted zones worse is bad! I’m saying claiming that nature is always pretty and naturally balanced without massive die offs and imbalances is just ignorant. That claiming natural hazards don’t exist or aren’t often at least as or more of an hazard is ignorant. And leads to major mistakes on our side, if we think that. And I wish I could be ignored. Arguing obvious stuff like this is exhausting, but apparently it needs to be done or the BS spreads even further - and causes real problems.
scotty79 2y ago
Oil wells literally pump out stuff from purely natural dinosaur landfill. Coal mines extract material from tree landfills that happily accumulated waste for millions of years. Give us a million years or two and we'll figure out what to do with plastic as well. Either we are gonna do it or some other species.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  Wait so which of those dead organisms that decompose were like plastic? Answer: None. Interesting pattern in this thread of anti-alarmists thinking they’re privy to some special knowledge but actually it’s stuff everyone learns in like 5th grade (btw it wasn’t literal dinosaurs, but whatever).
  - lazide 2y ago
    At the time - wood. Wood was literally like plastic, and didn’t bio degrade. Which is why we have veins of coal. Near as anyone can tell.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      Which type of wood particulate is suspected of being endocrine disruptive and is being found bioaccumulating in the reproductive organs of ~every organism on earth?
      - scotty79 2y ago
        Coal was and still is responsible for so so many death. And it comes from biosphere landfill we dug up maybe too soon.
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        Good response if the argument was natural == good, but it's not. Lighting coal on fire is also bad. Coal didn't suddenly zap into existence and then to global prevalence in air, food, and water within decades.

lazide 2y ago

Or you just have no idea what you’re talking about, because you live in a nice cushy region. [https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/malaria https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/malaria] - kills over half a million people a year. [https://science.utah.edu/news/toxic-dust-hot-spots/][https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/valley-fever/symptoms-causes/syc-20378761] https://science.utah.edu/news/toxic-dust-hot-spots/][https:/... [https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/chagas-disease/symptoms-causes/syc-20356212# https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/chagas-diseas...] [https://www.un-igrac.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/Rapport%201%20-%20Arsenic%20online.pdf https://www.un-igrac.org/sites/default/files/resources/files...] ground water arsenic levels, nice maps start on page 5. [https://sustainability.stanford.edu/news/new-study-allows-regional-prediction-uranium-groundwater https://sustainability.stanford.edu/news/new-study-allows-re...] All are driven by these factors, and there are many many more. And that isn’t even factoring in things like natural ground water Arsenic and Uranium contamination which poisons millions in many areas. Near as I can tell, you’re just living in areas that are the equivalent of ‘the good side of the tracks’. If you think Nature works at smaller scales than man, you’ve never spent time in Nature. Can we make things worse? Sure! But there are also plenty of real, large scale, natural hazards out there.

llamaimperative 2y ago
I don’t know what or who you think you’re arguing against, but it ain’t me. First your response to “the non-human environment is an astoundingly efficient circular system” was “nuh uh, nature makes things that smell bad and are ugly too!” Now your response to “nature doesn’t produce refuse of the same type or scale as humans” (clearly referring to the massive amounts of obscenely stable and probably-toxic-to-most-creatures plastic that we produce) is “MALARIA EXISTS, rich guy!” Take a breath. Try to find where I said “nature works on smaller scales than humans.” When you find a line that looks similar but says something quite different, get curious about that difference! That’s where you’ll find what I’m actually saying.
- lazide 2y ago
  Same to you, apparently. Edit: oh, but you had to change your comment completely once you actually read things. What a ridiculous person. Swamps naturally breed malaria, among other diseases, similar to how dumps breed Rats. Swamps are where rivers and the like end up washing all the detritus. Malaria (estimated) has killed more humans than any other cause. Living anywhere near a swamp is the natural equivalent of living near a dump burning tires constantly, but provably more lethal than the dump. Without massive effort to control the vector anyway. Swamps are as natural as it gets. How many hundreds of thousands of people are killed by plastic waste in dumps per year again? Zero? Except for maybe some rando who chokes on something? And again, that is without discussing natural arsenic and uranium water contamination. Oh, and I forgot about Radon [https://images.app.goo.gl/frMD3KoKXdssTgtM9 https://images.app.goo.gl/frMD3KoKXdssTgtM9]. We get worked up about human hazards because humans ‘should know better’, and are at least nominally within our control. Nature just DGAF, and works at scales we can barely comprehend most of the time. And is often completely outside of our control. So apparently some people seem to think the hazards don’t exist or aren’t clearly far worse in many cases? After all, how much man made radioactive gas do you need to check if you are breathing in at home? And yes, all of this is very pertinent to the ‘kumbaya nature is self sustaining and all loving and takes care of everything’ comment. Nature is, of that there is no question, at least. The rest is up for debate/interpretation. I love nature - but let’s not pretend it can be pretty stabby sometimes.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - titzer 2y ago
    Worldwide ocean plastic kills vast quantities of marine life. It's an enormous problem that affects entire ecosystems. Malaria is a complete red herring. "you just have no idea what you’re talking about" is just plain rude. No one comes here for that, so you'll have to stop doing that to avoid being ignored.
    - lazide 2y ago
      So do red tides. Oxygen depletion zones. Population imbalances leading to mass die offs. Huge oil spills. Etc. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK220695/#:~:text=Assuming%20the%20seep%20scales%20are,to%20200%2C000%20tonnes%20per%20year https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK220695/#:~:text=Assumi...).] which we have records of for all of recorded history (and fossil records of from far before that). I’m not saying plastic is good to be dumping in the ocean. It isn’t! Oil spills are bad! Dumping massive quantities of fertilizer and making oxygen depleted zones worse is bad! I’m saying claiming that nature is always pretty and naturally balanced without massive die offs and imbalances is just ignorant. That claiming natural hazards don’t exist or aren’t often at least as or more of an hazard is ignorant. And leads to major mistakes on our side, if we think that. And I wish I could be ignored. Arguing obvious stuff like this is exhausting, but apparently it needs to be done or the BS spreads even further - and causes real problems.

scotty79 2y ago

Oil wells literally pump out stuff from purely natural dinosaur landfill. Coal mines extract material from tree landfills that happily accumulated waste for millions of years. Give us a million years or two and we'll figure out what to do with plastic as well. Either we are gonna do it or some other species.

llamaimperative 2y ago
Wait so which of those dead organisms that decompose were like plastic? Answer: None. Interesting pattern in this thread of anti-alarmists thinking they’re privy to some special knowledge but actually it’s stuff everyone learns in like 5th grade (btw it wasn’t literal dinosaurs, but whatever).
- lazide 2y ago
  At the time - wood. Wood was literally like plastic, and didn’t bio degrade. Which is why we have veins of coal. Near as anyone can tell.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    Which type of wood particulate is suspected of being endocrine disruptive and is being found bioaccumulating in the reproductive organs of ~every organism on earth?
    - scotty79 2y ago
      Coal was and still is responsible for so so many death. And it comes from biosphere landfill we dug up maybe too soon.
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        Good response if the argument was natural == good, but it's not. Lighting coal on fire is also bad. Coal didn't suddenly zap into existence and then to global prevalence in air, food, and water within decades.