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Although I dont like quite a few Firefox decisions. Like the floating tabs which no easy way to revert. I still think Firefox as a browser is fairly decent. And

Although I dont like quite a few Firefox decisions. Like the floating tabs which no easy way to revert. I still think Firefox as a browser is fairly decent. And I also think that ladybird is going to have all the problems that Opera Presto had (and now Firefox has) which is going to be ignored by any small developers, and targeted to generate errors by the big companies (google/microsoft...) I definitely would have preferred the momentum to go to SerinityOS, and perhaps, importing firefox/librewolf into Serinity OS.

paulryanrogers 2y ago
If enough people use different browsers then we'll get effective and slower standards once again. I think the only way to get people on other browsers is to legally require ballots on first use of an OS/device with random order. It worked in the EU, it can work in the US too.
- sharlos201068 2y ago
  How did it work in the EU? Almost the entire planet uses Chrome including the EU.
  - paulryanrogers 2y ago
    In the early 2010s a ballot appeared for new users on Windows [0], though the legal requirement expired only a few years later. It helped other browsers gain market share. Sadly it's not enough alone. Major web players can promote their own browser and sabotage others, even if only by neglecting to test them. IMO a permanent ballot law is needed alongside restrictions from major web vendors pushing their own browser's and relying on their own browsers non-standard features. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu
    - zamadatix 2y ago
      Do you perhaps mean to argue you think it helped other browsers lose users slower than they otherwise might have? From your link: > Competing browsers saw their traffic increase,[16] suggesting that these smaller competing developers were gaining users. However, long-term trends show browsers such as Opera and Firefox losing market share in Europe, calling into question the usefulness of the browser choice screen.[1] Opera is the smaller competitor referred to in both halves and it lost user share in Europe while this was in effect. About the only thing the ballot can claim is a loss in users of the 1st party browser IE but that effect was already occurring prior to the ballot anyways.
      - paulryanrogers 2y ago
        On the whole it did only slow the tide. Yet it wasn't enough alone, limited to one OS, in one market, for only ~4 years, at a time when Google was pushing its own from some of the world's most popular services. Still, every victory is worth celebrating. Moping every time a (modestly successful) approach is brought up isn't going to move the needle. Dominant browsers rely on many tricks to gain and hold their position. It will take more than one approach to restore a balance.
        zamadatix 2y ago
        I appreciate you consider it key but that several others are disagreeing whether something was successful is not them simply moping it was successful but not enough :). Keep in mind this all started out with this being the only way to get people on other browsers like how it had already worked in the EU so that's going to have steered more disagreement in the conversation than you might expect. I think the browser ballot style thing may have hurt more than it helped in the long run. E.g. users clicking things they don't understand during the initial setup of their computer (while a whole lot of other things they don't really deal with often are going on too) may have actually resulted in some extra short term download hits that immediately scared those users away from spending time trying other browsers out once they realize what their selection meant in terms of change. How many users that clicked on Maxthon and were confused/disappointed with a (then) Trident based browser that wasn't quite IE? Hard to say but the data isn't jumping out to show the opposite. I agree it would take more than one approach to restore the balance but I disagree that means all approaches are inherently helpful to roll out, let alone inherently key. The ballot initiative didn't result in any measurable change, even against the tide when compared to other regions, and simultaneously focuses both people and discussion away from major issues like the tricks dominant players actually use to gain market share. E.g. Microsoft had IE (and later Edge) bundled as the default choice after the ballot and share continued to decline up until they used these other working tactics which have resulted in it becoming the 2nd most used desktop browser again.
- erremerre 2y ago
  Unfortunately that is not how it works. The only way to get different browsers is to get absolutely every single OS project with some traction to force installation of them, to show advertisement everywhere, and to couple it with the installation of any piece of software, and to set it as default, plus import silently everything. Anything that is not a dirty tactic will not work. Also, the moment a user got an error they dont understand in certain browser, they blame the browser and change. How do you think firefox got out of business? Have you tried using Firefox to request an appointment with the Spanish Drive and Vehicle License Administration? It wont work. The civil servant will tell you use chrome. When a user get 2 or 3 use chrome to work, they will just use whatever it works. They won the browser war, adding ladybug to steal from firefox, is also not going to help either.
  - paulryanrogers 2y ago
    All of those problems can be fixed by legal means. We cannot expect the market to regulate itself into a healthy competitive balance. Force sites to implement baseline standards and not rely on non-standard features. Disallow major web players from pushing their own browsers and from relying on their own browser's non-standard features. Permanently require browser ballots on all widely used consumer OS's. Heavily fine violators consistently. Use the money to support an independent standards body. Naive users will get a random, standards compliant browser. This throng will help prevent sites with no concern for the law from testing against only one instead of against the standard.
    - erremerre 2y ago
      There has been 30/40 years of internet, and no legal battle has manage to get anything on that regard. I would even say, topics on the internet with a lot of lobbying, such as pirating software/media, in the same timeframe, has managed to get absolutely nothing done. I am afraid, it would not be possible to regulate legally.
      - paulryanrogers 2y ago
        Yet regulations have happened and continue to, just different ones of varying ... quality/purpose. Even among preservation/piracy there have been moderately successful efforts. Apathy will not bring change. Only speech and action.
- dns_snek 2y ago
  It's great that we're faced with an explicit choice here in the EU, but I don't think it really done much in terms of affecting Chrome's entrenched market share. Most people use whatever tools they're already familiar with. Almost everyone I know uses Chrome, including the majority of my tech circle. I think people are only going to switch once the Firefox user experience is noticeably better for the average person. Google is on track to make that happen after they finally disable Manifest v2 extensions and as they continue their crackdown on ad blockers.
  - paulryanrogers 2y ago
    Firefox doesn't control major web properties from which it can nag users to switch. Chrome (and similar chokepoint-holders like Safari) won't be unseated by market forces for years, maybe decades. We are on the road to technology feudalism as the web and browsers eat the world.
torstenvl 2y ago
> the floating tabs which no easy way to revert Very easy in userChrome.css. I put mine on GitHub but it's nothing special, there are lots and lots that are available. https://github.com/torstenvl/userChrome.css https://github.com/torstenvl/userChrome.css
- erremerre 2y ago
  Not what I would consider easy, that is medium. Easy should be install a theme/extension, or toggle an option on configurations. Yours can be broken after updates, and requires to know what it is (I do, I just cant be bothered), and redownload and apply after each time an update breaks it. I have decided to live with the awful floating tabs rather than personalising the userChrome.css, I wish someone could convert it into an extension.
1oooqooq 2y ago
let's all take a moment to appreciate how google managed to get the web to the state it was in 1996, when you had to develop for one browser and then go fix things in another. /slow clap

paulryanrogers 2y ago

If enough people use different browsers then we'll get effective and slower standards once again. I think the only way to get people on other browsers is to legally require ballots on first use of an OS/device with random order. It worked in the EU, it can work in the US too.

sharlos201068 2y ago
How did it work in the EU? Almost the entire planet uses Chrome including the EU.
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  In the early 2010s a ballot appeared for new users on Windows [0], though the legal requirement expired only a few years later. It helped other browsers gain market share. Sadly it's not enough alone. Major web players can promote their own browser and sabotage others, even if only by neglecting to test them. IMO a permanent ballot law is needed alongside restrictions from major web vendors pushing their own browser's and relying on their own browsers non-standard features. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu
  - zamadatix 2y ago
    Do you perhaps mean to argue you think it helped other browsers lose users slower than they otherwise might have? From your link: > Competing browsers saw their traffic increase,[16] suggesting that these smaller competing developers were gaining users. However, long-term trends show browsers such as Opera and Firefox losing market share in Europe, calling into question the usefulness of the browser choice screen.[1] Opera is the smaller competitor referred to in both halves and it lost user share in Europe while this was in effect. About the only thing the ballot can claim is a loss in users of the 1st party browser IE but that effect was already occurring prior to the ballot anyways.
    - paulryanrogers 2y ago
      On the whole it did only slow the tide. Yet it wasn't enough alone, limited to one OS, in one market, for only ~4 years, at a time when Google was pushing its own from some of the world's most popular services. Still, every victory is worth celebrating. Moping every time a (modestly successful) approach is brought up isn't going to move the needle. Dominant browsers rely on many tricks to gain and hold their position. It will take more than one approach to restore a balance.
      - zamadatix 2y ago
        I appreciate you consider it key but that several others are disagreeing whether something was successful is not them simply moping it was successful but not enough :). Keep in mind this all started out with this being the only way to get people on other browsers like how it had already worked in the EU so that's going to have steered more disagreement in the conversation than you might expect. I think the browser ballot style thing may have hurt more than it helped in the long run. E.g. users clicking things they don't understand during the initial setup of their computer (while a whole lot of other things they don't really deal with often are going on too) may have actually resulted in some extra short term download hits that immediately scared those users away from spending time trying other browsers out once they realize what their selection meant in terms of change. How many users that clicked on Maxthon and were confused/disappointed with a (then) Trident based browser that wasn't quite IE? Hard to say but the data isn't jumping out to show the opposite. I agree it would take more than one approach to restore the balance but I disagree that means all approaches are inherently helpful to roll out, let alone inherently key. The ballot initiative didn't result in any measurable change, even against the tide when compared to other regions, and simultaneously focuses both people and discussion away from major issues like the tricks dominant players actually use to gain market share. E.g. Microsoft had IE (and later Edge) bundled as the default choice after the ballot and share continued to decline up until they used these other working tactics which have resulted in it becoming the 2nd most used desktop browser again.
erremerre 2y ago
Unfortunately that is not how it works. The only way to get different browsers is to get absolutely every single OS project with some traction to force installation of them, to show advertisement everywhere, and to couple it with the installation of any piece of software, and to set it as default, plus import silently everything. Anything that is not a dirty tactic will not work. Also, the moment a user got an error they dont understand in certain browser, they blame the browser and change. How do you think firefox got out of business? Have you tried using Firefox to request an appointment with the Spanish Drive and Vehicle License Administration? It wont work. The civil servant will tell you use chrome. When a user get 2 or 3 use chrome to work, they will just use whatever it works. They won the browser war, adding ladybug to steal from firefox, is also not going to help either.
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  All of those problems can be fixed by legal means. We cannot expect the market to regulate itself into a healthy competitive balance. Force sites to implement baseline standards and not rely on non-standard features. Disallow major web players from pushing their own browsers and from relying on their own browser's non-standard features. Permanently require browser ballots on all widely used consumer OS's. Heavily fine violators consistently. Use the money to support an independent standards body. Naive users will get a random, standards compliant browser. This throng will help prevent sites with no concern for the law from testing against only one instead of against the standard.
  - erremerre 2y ago
    There has been 30/40 years of internet, and no legal battle has manage to get anything on that regard. I would even say, topics on the internet with a lot of lobbying, such as pirating software/media, in the same timeframe, has managed to get absolutely nothing done. I am afraid, it would not be possible to regulate legally.
    - paulryanrogers 2y ago
      Yet regulations have happened and continue to, just different ones of varying ... quality/purpose. Even among preservation/piracy there have been moderately successful efforts. Apathy will not bring change. Only speech and action.
dns_snek 2y ago
It's great that we're faced with an explicit choice here in the EU, but I don't think it really done much in terms of affecting Chrome's entrenched market share. Most people use whatever tools they're already familiar with. Almost everyone I know uses Chrome, including the majority of my tech circle. I think people are only going to switch once the Firefox user experience is noticeably better for the average person. Google is on track to make that happen after they finally disable Manifest v2 extensions and as they continue their crackdown on ad blockers.
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  Firefox doesn't control major web properties from which it can nag users to switch. Chrome (and similar chokepoint-holders like Safari) won't be unseated by market forces for years, maybe decades. We are on the road to technology feudalism as the web and browsers eat the world.

torstenvl 2y ago

> the floating tabs which no easy way to revert Very easy in userChrome.css. I put mine on GitHub but it's nothing special, there are lots and lots that are available. https://github.com/torstenvl/userChrome.css https://github.com/torstenvl/userChrome.css

erremerre 2y ago
Not what I would consider easy, that is medium. Easy should be install a theme/extension, or toggle an option on configurations. Yours can be broken after updates, and requires to know what it is (I do, I just cant be bothered), and redownload and apply after each time an update breaks it. I have decided to live with the awful floating tabs rather than personalising the userChrome.css, I wish someone could convert it into an extension.

1oooqooq 2y ago

let's all take a moment to appreciate how google managed to get the web to the state it was in 1996, when you had to develop for one browser and then go fix things in another. /slow clap