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EVs Are Selling Well for Everyone Except Tesla

46 points by consumer451 2y ago

consumer451 2y ago
> Sales data from April, collected by Automotive News, shows growth in the EV market outpacing that of vehicles as a whole. Electric sales were up 14 percent as a whole, which is a promising number. Yet, when you take Tesla out of the equation, those numbers skyrocket: Non-Tesla EV sales grew a full 69 percent over the same period.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  Maybe Tesla's market/customer base has just saturated.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - consumer451 2y ago
    As a relatively early investor, I have been watching Tesla subs for a long time. Even though I sold 2 years ago I still pay attention. While certainly not the only factor, public opinion on Musk is a significant factor it appears: https://electrek.co/2023/07/27/disapproval-elon-musk-top-reason-tesla-owners-selling-survey/ https://electrek.co/2023/07/27/disapproval-elon-musk-top-rea... https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Areddit.com+won%27t+buy+a+tesla+because+of+Musk https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Areddit.com+won%27t+bu...
    - mike_hearn 2y ago
      > The survey also found that 87% of Model 3 owners are considering a Tesla for their next vehicles. That means it’s a fairly small percentage of people who are actually walking away from Tesla overall, and only about one in five of those people are doing it because of Musk
      - Retric 2y ago
        People considering buying a Tesla isn’t the same as people actually buying a Tesla. 13% of owners found the experience so bad they are completely unwilling to consider the brand. People who dislike the cars or company but want a sub 45k EV with ~300 miles of range still don’t have a lot of options. Thus most current owners would at least consider buying another Tesla.
        ptero 2y ago
        Why do you think those 13% found the experience very bad? They might have moved to an area where there are no superchargers, they may want to try something different (which people do, even if they like what they have today), they might want a different body type (sport instead of the family), there may be many other reasons.
  - xkbarkar 2y ago
    I´d also wager that some of the competition has finally gotten they sh!t together. Tried the new WV ev Passad and the latest Skoda Enyaq. Both have great battery range and when it comes to comfort are much better than the stiff bumby Tesla. Tesla had momentum and they used it to the max. Now the competition has gotten wizer. I do not subscribe to the interwebs anti-Musk rhetoric, most people do not care if he eats babies for breakfast as long as his cars are affordable, reliable, comfortable and reasonably green. So before the Musk hate starts as is fashion in the forums these days, competition got better, Tesla are no longer ahead. That's what I would bet on.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Tesla had momentum and they used it to the max They had momentum and fumbled it with the Cybertruck. They retain a massive sourcing and production expertise advantage, as well as a built-in marketing advantage in their existing customers (and Superchargers). In the time they fumbled they lost the low-end market to China. They’re currently bleeding the aspirational market to higher-end, more-differentiated brands. I’m not a car guy. It isn’t clear where they go from here. But they both didn’t use their momentum “to the max,” nor are they out of steam.
      - Sakos 2y ago
        When the Cybertruck launched was already too late for them to have launched a "budget" Tesla, and a budget Tesla is what they really needed to cement their lead in the EV industry. Now there are a bunch of decent competitors in Tesla's market segments and China is eating (or will eat) everybody's lunch in cheaper segments (except for the US, I guess, with the 100% import tax). I have no idea what they're doing. It looks like the budget Tesla is dead in the water and they're all in on robotaxis? How is that going to work? What's their actual strategy for the near to long-term future?
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > When the Cybertruck launched was already too late for them to have launched a "budget" Tesla Sure. When the Cybertruck started diverting resources it wasn’t. > they're all in on robotaxis? Current market leader is Mercedes with an SAE Level 3 vehicle [1]. (Tesla markets like it’s Level 5, but it’s technically Level 2, same as my Subaru.) Waymo is Level 4 [2]. They appear to be at their field’s forefront. If Tesla could sell a Level 4 vehicle, even one that only carries that guarantee on certain routes at certain times of the day in certain weather, it would be a game changer. [1] https://fortune.com/2024/04/18/mercedes-self-driving-autonomous-cars-california-nevada-level-3-drive-pilot/ https://fortune.com/2024/04/18/mercedes-self-driving-autonom... [2] https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update 3.5 if you’re picky
  - pantalaimon 2y ago
    Being so strongly associated with Elon Musk and therefore his political opinions really shrank the customer base. EVs aren’t very popular with the average right wingers.
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      Moving the blame on right wingers feels incredibly wrong. Reminds me how certain movie directors blame the right wingers for their movie flopping, when the real reason is their movie just sucks mega balls period. Just own your failures and stop looking for right wing straw men everywhere as scapegoats. Money talks in the free market and consumers vote with their wallets so if you make products that are top quality and great value, they'll buy them regardless of your political orientation.
      - cmgxyz 2y ago
        I’ll bite. Who are we talking about here?
        Rinzler89 2y ago
        [flagged]
      - dsr_ 2y ago
        [flagged]
  - cjk2 2y ago
    This is the financial model the large investors have been working on. Luxury market saturation followed by commoditisation of EVs. Go look at the Invesco QQQ ETF on Morningstar and they're the only loss in the top 10. Also why you diversify your investments and don't go all in on TSLA. Ride it, dump it.
  - rsynnott 2y ago
    It would be kind of weird if the customer base for a Tesla 3/Y was fundamentally different from the customer base for, say, a VW id.4 or that Hyundai whose name I forget that is everywhere, tho.
- mFixman 2y ago
  Aren't the majority of US electric cars Teslas? This is a crap article. Comparing the second derivative of cars in the road is classic statistical cheating.
  - dzhiurgis 2y ago
    Bingo. Hyundai sells like 5k EVs per month in US. It's basically nothing.
- gmoore 2y ago
  They are losing share - never a good thing
fransje26 2y ago
Ah. Just a stroke of good luck that Musk's $48 billion package has be approved by the shareholders then..
- mc32 2y ago
  I guess… But it was approved a while ago, except for some reason Delaware went against precedent and disallowed it so they moved to Texas where it was re-approved.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Delaware went against precedent and disallowed it Board competence is super precedented. Normally the courts defer to business judgement to an obnoxious degree, but if the Board isn’t independent it can no longer be assured to be serving its fiduciary duty. (To investors majority and minority.)
    - kjksf 2y ago
      The ruling was mostly not about board's competence but based on judge's opinion that during original vote the shareholders weren't properly informed about things. Given that re-approval happened at similar levels of shareholders support, that judgement seems incorrect. And yes, it is unprecedented as in "there's no similar ruling in Delaware history". And I stress "similar", not the "board competence" idea you made up. As you yourself noted, the precedent in Delaware is that judges stay away from second guessing boards or shareholders and this seems like an activist ruling, not something based on past Delaware rulings.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > ruling was mostly not about board's competence but based on judge's opinion that during original vote the shareholders weren't properly informed about things That second bit of analysis never kicks in if Musk isn’t a “controlling shareholder.” Put another way, the ruling wouldn’t have been legal if the Board were deemed competent. The Court found “Musk was the paradigmatic ‘Superstar CEO,’ who held some of the most influential corporate positions (CEO, Chair, and founder), enjoyed thick ties with the directors tasked with negotiating on behalf of Tesla, and dominated the process that led to board approval of his compensation plan,” thereby concluding “Musk controlled Tesla” [1]. This means the Court no longer defers to the company, but must decide if “the compensation plan was entirely fair.” > it is unprecedented as in "there's no similar ruling in Delaware history" What are you quoting? In any case, you’re correct: the entire fairness doctrine has only needed to be applied by Delaware thrice before, in the 1980s [2] and then 2022 [3]. The novelty remains in Tesla’s closely-construed Board. [1] https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2024/02/01/tesla-musk-case-post-trial-opinion/ https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2024/02/01/tesla-musk-case-p... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weinberger_v._UOP,_Inc https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weinberger_v._UOP,_Inc. [3] https://www.huschblackwell.com/newsandinsights/entire-fairness-review-first-applied-to-fiduciary-duty-claims-against-a-spacs-sponsor-and-directors https://www.huschblackwell.com/newsandinsights/entire-fairne...
drcongo 2y ago
There's loads of really good EVs on the market these days, why would anyone need to buy one that's so user hostile as to have non-functioning wipers.
- averageRoyalty 2y ago
  I hear this all the time and have never had an issue with my wipers or found it to be "user hostile". I'm also yet to see another EV with comparable range, price and performance in my market. The Polestar is close. Plenty hit 2/3.
cebert 2y ago
I am in the market for a new vehicle and am strongly considering purchasing an EV. Tesla’s lineup seems stale to me. The Model 3 is relatively modern. However, the Model Y is due for a refresh but project Juniper has been delayed. The Model X, and S are also stale. Competition offers fresh models with more better build quality and design. Tesla seems to be falling behind.
- aurareturn 2y ago
  It’s not clear if Tesla is focused on new models anymore. Seems like they think that the only way to justify their stock valuation is if they improve FSD.
  - me_me_me 2y ago
    at this stage FSD is a meme. "We are confident FSD will be available next year and its impact will be profound" repeated year after year for a DECADE now. Its not happening anytime soon, especially if tesla want to rely solely on visuals inputs without lidar.
- dghughes 2y ago
  KIA has some nice EVs the EV6 line and EV9 there's a new EV3 coming soon. I'm looking into the EV9 GT. I wish the Hyundai Sante Fe had a BEV model option it looks nicer outside than the EV9. The Hyundai KIA 800V (ish) charging is superior to Tesla vehicles.
- candyman 2y ago
  It reminds me of how Ford started and owned the market, then GM became dominant by offering different colors, models, and styles that would appeal to the market segment that wanted a car but not the model T. Other companies like BMW are doing very well with electric models because they are focused on delivering the same "BMW experience" in electric models. As far as I can tell the 3 and the Y are decent vehicles but no longer illicit the kind of emotion that excites a purchase. I don't get the cybertruck at all in terms of product/market fit. Seems like an "Edsel moment" to me.
- tnolet 2y ago
emmelaich 2y ago
And yet "Tesla Y has taken the top spot on the sales chart, outselling the Corolla in 2023 as the world's most popular passenger car." According to https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-model-y-worlds-best-selling-car-2023/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-model-y-worlds-best-sell... I think the car advice journalism is hopelessly polarised and political, like everything else. Sad.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > car advice journalism is hopelessly polarised and political Not sure why you’re coming to such a weird conclusion from two sets of facts that are mutually compatible. Tesla makes the best-selling EVs. We don’t have sales numbers for Q1, but they’re probably in line with 2023. The news is that while most of 2023 involved reporting on how EV sales were flagging, on review, we find EV sales are growing fine, it’s Tesla’s that are stable. That means they’ll continue to be a top seller. But less top than before.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  Key point being in 2023. Meanwhile, so far in 2024, they have sold fewer cars than this time last year. This is not unexpected after a massive success in one year, except for people who like to imagine that growth continues forever.
  - emmelaich 2y ago
    Yep, 2023. And? This article was published a few days ago. My point that there are some very pro-Tesla articles as well as many quite negative ones. You and others have misinterpreted my post. Maybe I should have elaborated.
    - averageRoyalty 2y ago
      What in your linked article do you think is falsely framed or incorrect? It doesn't seem political or polarised to report on the top selling EV with the latest available data. Are you suggesting Drive wouldn't have if it were another brand selling the most?
ghusto 2y ago
> Electric sales were up 14 percent as a whole, which is a promising number. Yet, when you take Tesla out of the equation, those numbers skyrocket: Non-Tesla EV sales grew a full 69 percent over the same period. Nice This is such dodgy reframing that I feel compelled to fix it: "EV sales are up 14%. Manufacturers other than Tesla made up the bulk of that".
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  But that isn’t the story. Tesla’s contribution to the 14%, the growth, was negative. We’re looking at the difference in differences, not absolute values.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- shoo 2y ago
  it's dodgy reframing, but you can't conclude that non-Telsa manufacturers made up the bulk of it, at least from that isolated quote Suppose Tesla had 99% market share at the start of the period. Sales of the entire market growing by 14% could be explained by 13.44% growth for Telsa's share and 69% growth for the other 1% market share. without knowing the absolute values, the headline is fairly meaningless
  - Sakos 2y ago
    I agree that the "framing" can be misleading, but in this case, it's burying how bad it is for Tesla actually. > New Tesla registrations fell 17 percent in April, marking three consecutive months in the red. Tesla’s share of the U.S. EV segment dropped to 46.3 percent in April from 63.8 percent a year earlier, S&P Global Mobility said. Tesla's growth in sales isn't just lower than everybody else's. It's negative. They're selling less than they used to while also losing market share and while their competitors have plenty of sales growth. I don't see any way to frame this positively.
twoodfin 2y ago
https://www.autonews.com/sales/april-us-ev-registrations-rise-despite-teslas-17-plunge https://www.autonews.com/sales/april-us-ev-registrations-ris... Clicking through to the source—or at least the part that’s not paywalled—it’s not clear how great that 69% increase is. It’s described as the result of heavy incentives to clear excess inventory.
seethecope 2y ago
[flagged]
ptero 2y ago
If you look carefully, the numbers are not nearly as convincing. The article (the real one, from Automotive, from which the numbers are quoted) is behind the paywall, but even the visible portion indicates that the pickup in sales is in response to major factory rebates, often in excess of $10k. This might be not be a pickup in interest in EVs, but a factory fire sale as they adjust to demand shifts. My 2c.
0xbadc0de5 2y ago
Could be that Tesla is reaching market saturation - nearly everyone that wants one, now has one. I just bought out the lease on my Model X and previously owned a Model S prior to that. Both are great cars.
gmoore 2y ago
I don't think this just about 'the competition getting wiser' or 'the market for EV's getting bigger'. People aren't buying Tesla because of Musk. Maybe not every missed sale is for that reason - but if you think for one minute that his behavior and his positions doesn't affect car sales - you're simply mistaken.
- EA-3167 2y ago
  I think the Cybertruck and QC issues that have become weekly issues in the media can't be helping either. It's a big, ugly, expensive piece of crap and that has to leave some people wondering about the stories of panel gaps and other issues in other Tesla models. Add Musk to that, and the existence of alternatives and I'm not shocked that the Tesla bubble is deflating.
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    the cybertruck is such a failure. the US truck market is gigantic; the F-150 is the single best selling vehicle -- not car, not truck, but ALL consumer vehicles -- in the US. There is a massive demand for the F-150 Lightning and a very pragmatic part of the US wants rechargable trucks esp. since they're more often than not commuter vehicles. Like, gas for these trucks is expensive. There is a market segment he could totally grab, and all he had to do was make a knock-off Nissan Titan with batteries and then dominate. The rest of the market is saturated and is now competing on price, and Asia will dominate there. If you can't compete on price then you compete on image, reliability, safety, etc., but their poor QC, combined with Musk's increasingly unhinged behavior, suggests that the brand is of dubious value.
    - sliken 2y ago
      Massive demand? My feed has mentioned numerous lack of demand, parking lots filling with unsold trucks, and significant cuts to production. "According to Ford spokeswoman Jessica Enoch, one-third of the 2,100 workers will remain at the plant starting April 1, 2024." Apparently they are cutting from 3 crews running 2 shifts to 1 crew running 1 shift.
kkfx 2y ago
A small personal note as one who have choose a new BEV 2 years ago: I was choosing to avoid Tesla because while their software is objectively far less CRAP than the others it's still much more "car as a service" than the others. I do reject surveillance capitalism so I prefer a crappy surveillant Chinese with buggier crapware but less services and even NO OTA than a western one who reach the point of selling insurance "depending on how you drive". If our automakers want to understand that we are better at software than the rest of the world but people do want to own and control not being puppets enslaved by services things can change, otherwise they have choose to commit suicide bringing us, the west, with them.

46 points by consumer451 2y ago

> Sales data from April, collected by Automotive News, shows growth in the EV market outpacing that of vehicles as a whole. Electric sales were up 14 percent as a whole, which is a promising number. Yet, when you take Tesla out of the equation, those numbers skyrocket: Non-Tesla EV sales grew a full 69 percent over the same period.

Rinzler89 2y ago
Maybe Tesla's market/customer base has just saturated.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- consumer451 2y ago
  As a relatively early investor, I have been watching Tesla subs for a long time. Even though I sold 2 years ago I still pay attention. While certainly not the only factor, public opinion on Musk is a significant factor it appears: https://electrek.co/2023/07/27/disapproval-elon-musk-top-reason-tesla-owners-selling-survey/ https://electrek.co/2023/07/27/disapproval-elon-musk-top-rea... https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Areddit.com+won%27t+buy+a+tesla+because+of+Musk https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Areddit.com+won%27t+bu...
  - mike_hearn 2y ago
    > The survey also found that 87% of Model 3 owners are considering a Tesla for their next vehicles. That means it’s a fairly small percentage of people who are actually walking away from Tesla overall, and only about one in five of those people are doing it because of Musk
    - Retric 2y ago
      People considering buying a Tesla isn’t the same as people actually buying a Tesla. 13% of owners found the experience so bad they are completely unwilling to consider the brand. People who dislike the cars or company but want a sub 45k EV with ~300 miles of range still don’t have a lot of options. Thus most current owners would at least consider buying another Tesla.
      - ptero 2y ago
        Why do you think those 13% found the experience very bad? They might have moved to an area where there are no superchargers, they may want to try something different (which people do, even if they like what they have today), they might want a different body type (sport instead of the family), there may be many other reasons.
- xkbarkar 2y ago
  I´d also wager that some of the competition has finally gotten they sh!t together. Tried the new WV ev Passad and the latest Skoda Enyaq. Both have great battery range and when it comes to comfort are much better than the stiff bumby Tesla. Tesla had momentum and they used it to the max. Now the competition has gotten wizer. I do not subscribe to the interwebs anti-Musk rhetoric, most people do not care if he eats babies for breakfast as long as his cars are affordable, reliable, comfortable and reasonably green. So before the Musk hate starts as is fashion in the forums these days, competition got better, Tesla are no longer ahead. That's what I would bet on.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Tesla had momentum and they used it to the max They had momentum and fumbled it with the Cybertruck. They retain a massive sourcing and production expertise advantage, as well as a built-in marketing advantage in their existing customers (and Superchargers). In the time they fumbled they lost the low-end market to China. They’re currently bleeding the aspirational market to higher-end, more-differentiated brands. I’m not a car guy. It isn’t clear where they go from here. But they both didn’t use their momentum “to the max,” nor are they out of steam.
    - Sakos 2y ago
      When the Cybertruck launched was already too late for them to have launched a "budget" Tesla, and a budget Tesla is what they really needed to cement their lead in the EV industry. Now there are a bunch of decent competitors in Tesla's market segments and China is eating (or will eat) everybody's lunch in cheaper segments (except for the US, I guess, with the 100% import tax). I have no idea what they're doing. It looks like the budget Tesla is dead in the water and they're all in on robotaxis? How is that going to work? What's their actual strategy for the near to long-term future?
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > When the Cybertruck launched was already too late for them to have launched a "budget" Tesla Sure. When the Cybertruck started diverting resources it wasn’t. > they're all in on robotaxis? Current market leader is Mercedes with an SAE Level 3 vehicle [1]. (Tesla markets like it’s Level 5, but it’s technically Level 2, same as my Subaru.) Waymo is Level 4 [2]. They appear to be at their field’s forefront. If Tesla could sell a Level 4 vehicle, even one that only carries that guarantee on certain routes at certain times of the day in certain weather, it would be a game changer. [1] https://fortune.com/2024/04/18/mercedes-self-driving-autonomous-cars-california-nevada-level-3-drive-pilot/ https://fortune.com/2024/04/18/mercedes-self-driving-autonom... [2] https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update https://www.sae.org/blog/sae-j3016-update 3.5 if you’re picky
- pantalaimon 2y ago
  Being so strongly associated with Elon Musk and therefore his political opinions really shrank the customer base. EVs aren’t very popular with the average right wingers.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    Moving the blame on right wingers feels incredibly wrong. Reminds me how certain movie directors blame the right wingers for their movie flopping, when the real reason is their movie just sucks mega balls period. Just own your failures and stop looking for right wing straw men everywhere as scapegoats. Money talks in the free market and consumers vote with their wallets so if you make products that are top quality and great value, they'll buy them regardless of your political orientation.
    - cmgxyz 2y ago
      I’ll bite. Who are we talking about here?
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        [flagged]
    - dsr_ 2y ago
      [flagged]
- cjk2 2y ago
  This is the financial model the large investors have been working on. Luxury market saturation followed by commoditisation of EVs. Go look at the Invesco QQQ ETF on Morningstar and they're the only loss in the top 10. Also why you diversify your investments and don't go all in on TSLA. Ride it, dump it.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  It would be kind of weird if the customer base for a Tesla 3/Y was fundamentally different from the customer base for, say, a VW id.4 or that Hyundai whose name I forget that is everywhere, tho.
mFixman 2y ago
Aren't the majority of US electric cars Teslas? This is a crap article. Comparing the second derivative of cars in the road is classic statistical cheating.
- dzhiurgis 2y ago
  Bingo. Hyundai sells like 5k EVs per month in US. It's basically nothing.
gmoore 2y ago
They are losing share - never a good thing

fransje26 2y ago

Ah. Just a stroke of good luck that Musk's $48 billion package has be approved by the shareholders then..

mc32 2y ago
I guess… But it was approved a while ago, except for some reason Delaware went against precedent and disallowed it so they moved to Texas where it was re-approved.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Delaware went against precedent and disallowed it Board competence is super precedented. Normally the courts defer to business judgement to an obnoxious degree, but if the Board isn’t independent it can no longer be assured to be serving its fiduciary duty. (To investors majority and minority.)
  - kjksf 2y ago
    The ruling was mostly not about board's competence but based on judge's opinion that during original vote the shareholders weren't properly informed about things. Given that re-approval happened at similar levels of shareholders support, that judgement seems incorrect. And yes, it is unprecedented as in "there's no similar ruling in Delaware history". And I stress "similar", not the "board competence" idea you made up. As you yourself noted, the precedent in Delaware is that judges stay away from second guessing boards or shareholders and this seems like an activist ruling, not something based on past Delaware rulings.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > ruling was mostly not about board's competence but based on judge's opinion that during original vote the shareholders weren't properly informed about things That second bit of analysis never kicks in if Musk isn’t a “controlling shareholder.” Put another way, the ruling wouldn’t have been legal if the Board were deemed competent. The Court found “Musk was the paradigmatic ‘Superstar CEO,’ who held some of the most influential corporate positions (CEO, Chair, and founder), enjoyed thick ties with the directors tasked with negotiating on behalf of Tesla, and dominated the process that led to board approval of his compensation plan,” thereby concluding “Musk controlled Tesla” [1]. This means the Court no longer defers to the company, but must decide if “the compensation plan was entirely fair.” > it is unprecedented as in "there's no similar ruling in Delaware history" What are you quoting? In any case, you’re correct: the entire fairness doctrine has only needed to be applied by Delaware thrice before, in the 1980s [2] and then 2022 [3]. The novelty remains in Tesla’s closely-construed Board. [1] https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2024/02/01/tesla-musk-case-post-trial-opinion/ https://corpgov.law.harvard.edu/2024/02/01/tesla-musk-case-p... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weinberger_v._UOP,_Inc https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weinberger_v._UOP,_Inc. [3] https://www.huschblackwell.com/newsandinsights/entire-fairness-review-first-applied-to-fiduciary-duty-claims-against-a-spacs-sponsor-and-directors https://www.huschblackwell.com/newsandinsights/entire-fairne...

drcongo 2y ago

There's loads of really good EVs on the market these days, why would anyone need to buy one that's so user hostile as to have non-functioning wipers.

averageRoyalty 2y ago
I hear this all the time and have never had an issue with my wipers or found it to be "user hostile". I'm also yet to see another EV with comparable range, price and performance in my market. The Polestar is close. Plenty hit 2/3.

cebert 2y ago

I am in the market for a new vehicle and am strongly considering purchasing an EV. Tesla’s lineup seems stale to me. The Model 3 is relatively modern. However, the Model Y is due for a refresh but project Juniper has been delayed. The Model X, and S are also stale. Competition offers fresh models with more better build quality and design. Tesla seems to be falling behind.

aurareturn 2y ago
It’s not clear if Tesla is focused on new models anymore. Seems like they think that the only way to justify their stock valuation is if they improve FSD.
- me_me_me 2y ago
  at this stage FSD is a meme. "We are confident FSD will be available next year and its impact will be profound" repeated year after year for a DECADE now. Its not happening anytime soon, especially if tesla want to rely solely on visuals inputs without lidar.
dghughes 2y ago
KIA has some nice EVs the EV6 line and EV9 there's a new EV3 coming soon. I'm looking into the EV9 GT. I wish the Hyundai Sante Fe had a BEV model option it looks nicer outside than the EV9. The Hyundai KIA 800V (ish) charging is superior to Tesla vehicles.
candyman 2y ago
It reminds me of how Ford started and owned the market, then GM became dominant by offering different colors, models, and styles that would appeal to the market segment that wanted a car but not the model T. Other companies like BMW are doing very well with electric models because they are focused on delivering the same "BMW experience" in electric models. As far as I can tell the 3 and the Y are decent vehicles but no longer illicit the kind of emotion that excites a purchase. I don't get the cybertruck at all in terms of product/market fit. Seems like an "Edsel moment" to me.
tnolet 2y ago

emmelaich 2y ago

And yet "Tesla Y has taken the top spot on the sales chart, outselling the Corolla in 2023 as the world's most popular passenger car." According to https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-model-y-worlds-best-selling-car-2023/ https://www.drive.com.au/news/tesla-model-y-worlds-best-sell... I think the car advice journalism is hopelessly polarised and political, like everything else. Sad.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> car advice journalism is hopelessly polarised and political Not sure why you’re coming to such a weird conclusion from two sets of facts that are mutually compatible. Tesla makes the best-selling EVs. We don’t have sales numbers for Q1, but they’re probably in line with 2023. The news is that while most of 2023 involved reporting on how EV sales were flagging, on review, we find EV sales are growing fine, it’s Tesla’s that are stable. That means they’ll continue to be a top seller. But less top than before.
tsimionescu 2y ago
Key point being in 2023. Meanwhile, so far in 2024, they have sold fewer cars than this time last year. This is not unexpected after a massive success in one year, except for people who like to imagine that growth continues forever.
- emmelaich 2y ago
  Yep, 2023. And? This article was published a few days ago. My point that there are some very pro-Tesla articles as well as many quite negative ones. You and others have misinterpreted my post. Maybe I should have elaborated.
  - averageRoyalty 2y ago
    What in your linked article do you think is falsely framed or incorrect? It doesn't seem political or polarised to report on the top selling EV with the latest available data. Are you suggesting Drive wouldn't have if it were another brand selling the most?

ghusto 2y ago

> Electric sales were up 14 percent as a whole, which is a promising number. Yet, when you take Tesla out of the equation, those numbers skyrocket: Non-Tesla EV sales grew a full 69 percent over the same period. Nice This is such dodgy reframing that I feel compelled to fix it: "EV sales are up 14%. Manufacturers other than Tesla made up the bulk of that".

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
But that isn’t the story. Tesla’s contribution to the 14%, the growth, was negative. We’re looking at the difference in differences, not absolute values.
- deleted 2y ago
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shoo 2y ago
it's dodgy reframing, but you can't conclude that non-Telsa manufacturers made up the bulk of it, at least from that isolated quote Suppose Tesla had 99% market share at the start of the period. Sales of the entire market growing by 14% could be explained by 13.44% growth for Telsa's share and 69% growth for the other 1% market share. without knowing the absolute values, the headline is fairly meaningless
- Sakos 2y ago
  I agree that the "framing" can be misleading, but in this case, it's burying how bad it is for Tesla actually. > New Tesla registrations fell 17 percent in April, marking three consecutive months in the red. Tesla’s share of the U.S. EV segment dropped to 46.3 percent in April from 63.8 percent a year earlier, S&P Global Mobility said. Tesla's growth in sales isn't just lower than everybody else's. It's negative. They're selling less than they used to while also losing market share and while their competitors have plenty of sales growth. I don't see any way to frame this positively.

twoodfin 2y ago

https://www.autonews.com/sales/april-us-ev-registrations-rise-despite-teslas-17-plunge https://www.autonews.com/sales/april-us-ev-registrations-ris... Clicking through to the source—or at least the part that’s not paywalled—it’s not clear how great that 69% increase is. It’s described as the result of heavy incentives to clear excess inventory.

seethecope 2y ago

[flagged]

ptero 2y ago

If you look carefully, the numbers are not nearly as convincing. The article (the real one, from Automotive, from which the numbers are quoted) is behind the paywall, but even the visible portion indicates that the pickup in sales is in response to major factory rebates, often in excess of $10k. This might be not be a pickup in interest in EVs, but a factory fire sale as they adjust to demand shifts. My 2c.

0xbadc0de5 2y ago

Could be that Tesla is reaching market saturation - nearly everyone that wants one, now has one. I just bought out the lease on my Model X and previously owned a Model S prior to that. Both are great cars.

gmoore 2y ago

I don't think this just about 'the competition getting wiser' or 'the market for EV's getting bigger'. People aren't buying Tesla because of Musk. Maybe not every missed sale is for that reason - but if you think for one minute that his behavior and his positions doesn't affect car sales - you're simply mistaken.

EA-3167 2y ago
I think the Cybertruck and QC issues that have become weekly issues in the media can't be helping either. It's a big, ugly, expensive piece of crap and that has to leave some people wondering about the stories of panel gaps and other issues in other Tesla models. Add Musk to that, and the existence of alternatives and I'm not shocked that the Tesla bubble is deflating.
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  the cybertruck is such a failure. the US truck market is gigantic; the F-150 is the single best selling vehicle -- not car, not truck, but ALL consumer vehicles -- in the US. There is a massive demand for the F-150 Lightning and a very pragmatic part of the US wants rechargable trucks esp. since they're more often than not commuter vehicles. Like, gas for these trucks is expensive. There is a market segment he could totally grab, and all he had to do was make a knock-off Nissan Titan with batteries and then dominate. The rest of the market is saturated and is now competing on price, and Asia will dominate there. If you can't compete on price then you compete on image, reliability, safety, etc., but their poor QC, combined with Musk's increasingly unhinged behavior, suggests that the brand is of dubious value.
  - sliken 2y ago
    Massive demand? My feed has mentioned numerous lack of demand, parking lots filling with unsold trucks, and significant cuts to production. "According to Ford spokeswoman Jessica Enoch, one-third of the 2,100 workers will remain at the plant starting April 1, 2024." Apparently they are cutting from 3 crews running 2 shifts to 1 crew running 1 shift.

kkfx 2y ago

A small personal note as one who have choose a new BEV 2 years ago: I was choosing to avoid Tesla because while their software is objectively far less CRAP than the others it's still much more "car as a service" than the others. I do reject surveillance capitalism so I prefer a crappy surveillant Chinese with buggier crapware but less services and even NO OTA than a western one who reach the point of selling insurance "depending on how you drive". If our automakers want to understand that we are better at software than the rest of the world but people do want to own and control not being puppets enslaved by services things can change, otherwise they have choose to commit suicide bringing us, the west, with them.