5 ms·

Amazing. I guess SARS-CoV-2 is much less stable in comparison to HIV? Higher mutation rate and other shifts vs broadly neutralizing antibodies? Anyways, it wou

Amazing. I guess SARS-CoV-2 is much less stable in comparison to HIV? Higher mutation rate and other shifts vs broadly neutralizing antibodies? Anyways, it would be nice to fully "solve" COVID-19 as it's still wreaking havoc somewhat silently (?) I also wonder when or if we'll see therapeutic vaccines against either of these and more sooner than later? Each time I only briefly start staring into the abyss that is "wetware" I'm gladly returning to our comparatively trivial (self-inflicted) complexity in the world of software / computing.

frankus 2y ago
I'm not sure if taking e.g. Paxlovid as pre-exposure prophylaxis has been studied, but my guess is that the side effects from the drug are worse in the long run than the disease itself (especially if the seriousness can be blunted via vaccination). Since people don't spontaneously recover from HIV infection, and the PrEP drugs have relatively few side-effects, the tradeoff is more favorable.
- ds_opseeker 2y ago
  In the long run, the side effect of HIV is death due to total collapse of the immune system.
- worstspotgain 2y ago
  Turns out you can do Covid PrEP with just Neosporin in your nose. It works for other pathogens too: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2319566121 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2319566121 In case you're wondering, this paper is 100% legit, see e.g. the bio for the big-shot author: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiko_Iwasaki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiko_Iwasaki No clue if this easy trick would induce immune escape if a large number of people started using it. I guess it's a good time to get in on the ground floor.
  - youainti 2y ago
    To be a little more precise: 1. "Prophylactic or therapeutic administration of neomycin provided significant protection against upper respiratory infection and lethal disease in a mouse model of COVID-19." 2. "Furthermore, neomycin treatment protected Mx1 congenic mice from upper and lower respiratory infections with a highly virulent strain of influenza A virus. " 3. "In Syrian hamsters, neomycin treatment potently mitigated contact transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)." 4. "In healthy humans, intranasal application of neomycin-containing Neosporin ointment was well tolerated and effective at inducing ISG expression in the nose in a subset of participants." The mechanism appears to be that Neosporin triggers an ISG[1] (immune) response? Not a biologist etc, but the results showing that it prevents transmission is only in rodent models, and then showing that a similar biomarker shows up in (some of) the participants and the rodent models. They authors say: > "These findings suggest that neomycin has the potential to be harnessed as a host-directed antiviral strategy for the prevention and treatment of respiratory viral infections." [1]
    - worstspotgain 2y ago
      Still early in the research, to be sure. Here's the human clinical study: https://classic.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05449392 https://classic.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05449392 Here's Eric Topol's chat with Iwasaki discussing the finding. Topol's blog may well be the best source for Covid research out there: https://erictopol.substack.com/p/akiko-iwasaki-the-immunology-of-covid https://erictopol.substack.com/p/akiko-iwasaki-the-immunolog...
  - aardvark92 2y ago
    This paper gets ripped into in my favorite podcast, TWiV (This Week in Virology)! Essentially, yes, neomycin in the nose, if timed perfectly, can activate the innate immune system, but en mass this practice would cause the spread of antibiotic resistance. Link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-week-in-virology/id300973784?i=1000654495789 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-week-in-virology/...
    - worstspotgain 2y ago
      If it turned out to work great in practice and people started using it en masse, the benefits would greatly outweigh the costs IMO, particularly if it snuffed out Covid and/or the flu. If it ends up being a niche thing, I doubt it would bite into the resistance numbers. Besides, we're already spiraling down the resistance chasm with antibacterial soaps, stuffing cattle with antibiotics, overprescribing, and so on.
  - Auracle 2y ago
    You don’t even need that. Carrageenan works: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8493111/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8493111/ Obviously it’s not stimulating the immune system but it works as an antiviral barrier. I’ve been using it since I read that study and I’ve avoid 2 of my daughter’s colds since (and still got 3). That might not sound impressive but I have a terrible immune system and haven’t avoided a cold from someone I’ve had close exposure to in as long as I can remember. That said, I might need to add some Neosporin to my mixture when she comes home with her nose running.
    - resoluteteeth 2y ago
      Do you buy a premade nasal spray with carrageenan or make your own somehow?
      - Auracle 2y ago
        I make my own. There's at least one product out there but it's something like $20 a bottle and you can make it for pennies. Here's a recipe: For 150ml of (distilled) water: 1.35g of salt 1.8g of iota carrageenan A drop of polysorbate 20 Heat up the water to close to boiling, add those things, shake it up, and there you go. Note: That was supposed to be in line with the product that was tested, but I've found adding more water makes it come out of the nose spray bottle thing better. It's still pretty thick, just not a complete gel. Perhaps there's another type of spray bottle that would be better.
Fomite 2y ago
HIV is notoriously unstable - RNA viruses don't contain any error checking during replication. Which is one reason HIV drugs, including those one, are almost always used in combination.
- uiberto 2y ago
  coronaviruses are also RNA viruses, fwiw
  - Horffupolde 2y ago
    It’s a different kind. HIV is a retrovirus in that RNA is reverse transcribed into DNA. Coronavirus transcribes to RNA directly.
worstspotgain 2y ago
There are several variant-resistant pan-Covid/pan-Sarbecovirus/etc. vaccines under development [1], including one by the US Army [2]. Vaccines are notoriously slow to develop, perfect, and test for safety and efficacy. The original Covid mRNA vaccines were developed at breakneck speeds as far as vaccines go. Unfortunately, much of the funding has since dried up. In fact, it's HIV that's much harder to develop a vaccine for. HIV vaccine research has been going on for 40 years and hasn't really had any candidates that went beyond "plausible" until recently. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41423-023-01116-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41423-023-01116-8 [2] https://mrdc.health.mil/index.cfm/media/news_releases/2021/pan_coronavirus_vaccine_development_strategy https://mrdc.health.mil/index.cfm/media/news_releases/2021/p...
- nothercastle 2y ago
  The covid vaccine was barely a vaccine. It was more like a flu shot in its efficacy and with significant more side effects
  - worstspotgain 2y ago
    Uh, no. It's actually extremely effective against the target variant. The original Wuhan strain is extinct as a result. In areas with high vaccine uptake, the population has very high levels of neutralizing antibodies against it, to this day. Even if it somehow broke out again, it would die off within weeks, as most of the population is immune to it. Evolution has driven the virus away from the neutralizing antibodies. This is called immune escape. Recent variants have very little antigenic overlap with the original strain. The original antibodies are not very effective, so people can actually get sick once again. The FDA now updates the vaccine formulation every year. This means that every year, there is a time window during which the vaccine formulation and the circulating variant are the same. If you get an updated shot as soon as it becomes available, you're immune for all practical purposes until a new variant emerges.
    - Auracle 2y ago
      Right, but most diseases we have vaccines for can’t easily evolve their way out of them like in this case. That’s kind of the point. And you’re far from immune with the newest formulations. From the CDC: “People who received the updated COVID-19 vaccine were 54% less likely to get COVID-19 during the four-month period from mid-September 2023 to January 2024.” https://www.cdc.gov/ncird/whats-new/covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness.html https://www.cdc.gov/ncird/whats-new/covid-19-vaccine-effecti... Even with the original strain/vaccine, effectiveness waned after 6 months.
opprobium 2y ago
This injection isn't a vaccine, it's an anti-viral drug being used as pre-exposure prophylaxis. The first approval of this approach was in 2012, but using an oral pill with a short half-life taken daily. That drug is still in use and also highly effective, the new improvement is to provide the same approach with a longer acting injected drug. One reason there has been great interest in this, despite the already effective oral PREP, is that there are thought to be socio-behavior advantages for cases like women in Africa as in this study. For example: the woman does not have to keep a supply of daily pills that a partner can find. Also possibly improved adherence with no missed doses. The drug itself is not thought to be more biologically effective than the oral drugs, which are basically already at close to 100% effective assuming the patient actually takes them as scheduled.
mywacaday 2y ago
I tested positive for COVID last weekend, was out of action for three days and spiked a 40.3C/104.5f fever. It was worse than when I got it three years ago.

frankus 2y ago

I'm not sure if taking e.g. Paxlovid as pre-exposure prophylaxis has been studied, but my guess is that the side effects from the drug are worse in the long run than the disease itself (especially if the seriousness can be blunted via vaccination). Since people don't spontaneously recover from HIV infection, and the PrEP drugs have relatively few side-effects, the tradeoff is more favorable.

ds_opseeker 2y ago
In the long run, the side effect of HIV is death due to total collapse of the immune system.
worstspotgain 2y ago
Turns out you can do Covid PrEP with just Neosporin in your nose. It works for other pathogens too: https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2319566121 https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2319566121 In case you're wondering, this paper is 100% legit, see e.g. the bio for the big-shot author: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiko_Iwasaki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akiko_Iwasaki No clue if this easy trick would induce immune escape if a large number of people started using it. I guess it's a good time to get in on the ground floor.
- youainti 2y ago
  To be a little more precise: 1. "Prophylactic or therapeutic administration of neomycin provided significant protection against upper respiratory infection and lethal disease in a mouse model of COVID-19." 2. "Furthermore, neomycin treatment protected Mx1 congenic mice from upper and lower respiratory infections with a highly virulent strain of influenza A virus. " 3. "In Syrian hamsters, neomycin treatment potently mitigated contact transmission of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2)." 4. "In healthy humans, intranasal application of neomycin-containing Neosporin ointment was well tolerated and effective at inducing ISG expression in the nose in a subset of participants." The mechanism appears to be that Neosporin triggers an ISG[1] (immune) response? Not a biologist etc, but the results showing that it prevents transmission is only in rodent models, and then showing that a similar biomarker shows up in (some of) the participants and the rodent models. They authors say: > "These findings suggest that neomycin has the potential to be harnessed as a host-directed antiviral strategy for the prevention and treatment of respiratory viral infections." [1]
  - worstspotgain 2y ago
    Still early in the research, to be sure. Here's the human clinical study: https://classic.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05449392 https://classic.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05449392 Here's Eric Topol's chat with Iwasaki discussing the finding. Topol's blog may well be the best source for Covid research out there: https://erictopol.substack.com/p/akiko-iwasaki-the-immunology-of-covid https://erictopol.substack.com/p/akiko-iwasaki-the-immunolog...
- aardvark92 2y ago
  This paper gets ripped into in my favorite podcast, TWiV (This Week in Virology)! Essentially, yes, neomycin in the nose, if timed perfectly, can activate the innate immune system, but en mass this practice would cause the spread of antibiotic resistance. Link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-week-in-virology/id300973784?i=1000654495789 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-week-in-virology/...
  - worstspotgain 2y ago
    If it turned out to work great in practice and people started using it en masse, the benefits would greatly outweigh the costs IMO, particularly if it snuffed out Covid and/or the flu. If it ends up being a niche thing, I doubt it would bite into the resistance numbers. Besides, we're already spiraling down the resistance chasm with antibacterial soaps, stuffing cattle with antibiotics, overprescribing, and so on.
- Auracle 2y ago
  You don’t even need that. Carrageenan works: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8493111/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8493111/ Obviously it’s not stimulating the immune system but it works as an antiviral barrier. I’ve been using it since I read that study and I’ve avoid 2 of my daughter’s colds since (and still got 3). That might not sound impressive but I have a terrible immune system and haven’t avoided a cold from someone I’ve had close exposure to in as long as I can remember. That said, I might need to add some Neosporin to my mixture when she comes home with her nose running.
  - resoluteteeth 2y ago
    Do you buy a premade nasal spray with carrageenan or make your own somehow?
    - Auracle 2y ago
      I make my own. There's at least one product out there but it's something like $20 a bottle and you can make it for pennies. Here's a recipe: For 150ml of (distilled) water: 1.35g of salt 1.8g of iota carrageenan A drop of polysorbate 20 Heat up the water to close to boiling, add those things, shake it up, and there you go. Note: That was supposed to be in line with the product that was tested, but I've found adding more water makes it come out of the nose spray bottle thing better. It's still pretty thick, just not a complete gel. Perhaps there's another type of spray bottle that would be better.

Fomite 2y ago

HIV is notoriously unstable - RNA viruses don't contain any error checking during replication. Which is one reason HIV drugs, including those one, are almost always used in combination.

uiberto 2y ago
coronaviruses are also RNA viruses, fwiw
- Horffupolde 2y ago
  It’s a different kind. HIV is a retrovirus in that RNA is reverse transcribed into DNA. Coronavirus transcribes to RNA directly.

worstspotgain 2y ago

There are several variant-resistant pan-Covid/pan-Sarbecovirus/etc. vaccines under development [1], including one by the US Army [2]. Vaccines are notoriously slow to develop, perfect, and test for safety and efficacy. The original Covid mRNA vaccines were developed at breakneck speeds as far as vaccines go. Unfortunately, much of the funding has since dried up. In fact, it's HIV that's much harder to develop a vaccine for. HIV vaccine research has been going on for 40 years and hasn't really had any candidates that went beyond "plausible" until recently. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41423-023-01116-8 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41423-023-01116-8 [2] https://mrdc.health.mil/index.cfm/media/news_releases/2021/pan_coronavirus_vaccine_development_strategy https://mrdc.health.mil/index.cfm/media/news_releases/2021/p...

nothercastle 2y ago
The covid vaccine was barely a vaccine. It was more like a flu shot in its efficacy and with significant more side effects
- worstspotgain 2y ago
  Uh, no. It's actually extremely effective against the target variant. The original Wuhan strain is extinct as a result. In areas with high vaccine uptake, the population has very high levels of neutralizing antibodies against it, to this day. Even if it somehow broke out again, it would die off within weeks, as most of the population is immune to it. Evolution has driven the virus away from the neutralizing antibodies. This is called immune escape. Recent variants have very little antigenic overlap with the original strain. The original antibodies are not very effective, so people can actually get sick once again. The FDA now updates the vaccine formulation every year. This means that every year, there is a time window during which the vaccine formulation and the circulating variant are the same. If you get an updated shot as soon as it becomes available, you're immune for all practical purposes until a new variant emerges.
  - Auracle 2y ago
    Right, but most diseases we have vaccines for can’t easily evolve their way out of them like in this case. That’s kind of the point. And you’re far from immune with the newest formulations. From the CDC: “People who received the updated COVID-19 vaccine were 54% less likely to get COVID-19 during the four-month period from mid-September 2023 to January 2024.” https://www.cdc.gov/ncird/whats-new/covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness.html https://www.cdc.gov/ncird/whats-new/covid-19-vaccine-effecti... Even with the original strain/vaccine, effectiveness waned after 6 months.

opprobium 2y ago

This injection isn't a vaccine, it's an anti-viral drug being used as pre-exposure prophylaxis. The first approval of this approach was in 2012, but using an oral pill with a short half-life taken daily. That drug is still in use and also highly effective, the new improvement is to provide the same approach with a longer acting injected drug. One reason there has been great interest in this, despite the already effective oral PREP, is that there are thought to be socio-behavior advantages for cases like women in Africa as in this study. For example: the woman does not have to keep a supply of daily pills that a partner can find. Also possibly improved adherence with no missed doses. The drug itself is not thought to be more biologically effective than the oral drugs, which are basically already at close to 100% effective assuming the patient actually takes them as scheduled.

mywacaday 2y ago

I tested positive for COVID last weekend, was out of action for three days and spiked a 40.3C/104.5f fever. It was worse than when I got it three years ago.