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Like every other software market, outsourcing firms are eating up the bottom end of the iOS development market at rates far below that. But I imagine if you can

Like every other software market, outsourcing firms are eating up the bottom end of the iOS development market at rates far below that. But I imagine if you can cultivate the right kind of local clients you can do well. Since you mention it, if anybody needs some freelance help with an app I'm available. As a self-outsourced American currently living in Vietnam I can significantly undercut $150/hr. ;)

ovi256 14y ago
Pre-empting patio11's obvious response: do not undersell yourself, because that's how you're going to be bought if you do. Let the client tell you your price is high, if that's the case, no need to do it yourself.
patio11 14y ago
Can you explain exactly what about the service delivered is different with you living in Vietnam versus you living in, I don't know, Central Japan? Or, for that matter, living in whatever "One town too far to come into the office in San Francisco" is? I mean, sure, you have a cost of living which will let you attempt to compete on price for the worst projects from the worst customers, but why not just deliver desirable projects for great customers at the price which the market has decided professional iOS development is worth?
- cageface 14y ago
  I figure the awkward time zone difference for most U.S. clients has to count for some kind of haircut. But your point is well taken. If I do decide to shift my focus from my own products to consulting I'm not going to do it at too high a discount.
  - patio11 14y ago
    Try not giving the discount on your next 3 quotes. See if it meaningfully increases client resistance. It probably won't. Can I tell you a story of something stupid I once did which nonetheless does not constrain me to always acting stupidly in the future? A particular prospect asked for a quote of my rate. I quoted my then-going rate and then, because I could not stop my fingers, said "But since we're Internet buddies I'll give you a discount." He said "OK, what's the final rate?" And I chopped 50% off. He accepted. Note that in no point prior to that had he evinced any problems with paying the actual rate and, indeed, the difference between X and 2X is meaningless to him because a) he's a millionaire and b) neither X nor 2X comes out of his pocket, it comes out of a budget of a corporate entity he happens to own a lot of shares in, and both of us assumed (accurately) that the engagement was going to make those shares worth substantially more than X, 2X, or 10X more. I set fire to five figures with two emails, and he probably doesn't even remember that conversation. Facepalm. But I don't have to facepalm next time, and neither do you.
    - orangethirty 14y ago
      Good lesson. I'm always selling myself for cheap because somehow I feel bad about charging for my code. I'll try it outside.
  - mikeryan 14y ago
    I figure the awkward time zone difference for most U.S. clients has to count for some kind of haircut. To be fair I hire a lot of developers on a contract basis. If you were in Vietnam (which is pretty much always off when we're on in SF) I would expect a discount. If I'm paying SF rates I'd rather have you in SF. There's a very real communication and feedback loop in design and dev that is difficult to deal with when folks are on the other side of the world. (Heck I expect a developer in Cleveland to be less expensive then one in SF) All that being said, and to Patrick's point. One thing I learned running a consultancy was to never assume someone is looking for a less expensive solution. Once we stopped doing this and started charging what we felt we were worth, a lot of our cash flow issues started magically clearing up.
    - cageface 14y ago
      That makes sense. Essentially you're paying a premium for somebody that can afford to be in close proximity in a very expensive city. It only makes sense that somebody that can only work remotely and at inconvenient times for you isn't worth as much. But the going Elance rates are ridiculous. I can make more money here with way less hassle as an English teacher.
  - dinkumthinkum 14y ago
    Yeah but previously you said you could undercut because you were in Vietnam. Now you say you think you probably need to undercut because you are in Vietnam. Big difference. :)
- LanceJones 14y ago
  When you don't know how to sell yourself, freelancers (and businesses!) compete based on price. It's the "obvious" choice but it wrongly assumes that's how potential customers make their purchase decisions. EDIT (additional context): When my wife quit her job at Intuit to start Copy Hackers, she also had to figure out how much to charge for her freelance copywriting work. After some investigation, she found that there are writers on eLance who charge $10 for an entire blog post and $20 for a press release. In addition, I make a very comfortable living working for a large software company -- enough that she could easily compete with the inexpensive off-shore writers because we have no real need for the extra money. However, none of that was factored into her decision, because she priced her services based on the value they would generate for her consulting clients -- and has moved her rates up twice in the past year from $50/hr to $150/hr. She has plenty of work at that rate, too...
  - GFischer 14y ago
    But did she get that business from elance or from other contacts? I signed up for elance, looked at a few projects, and found myself seriously undercut (and I don't want to compromise on quality or bid on projects over my head). If I do get some projects at what I believe is a correct market rate (and it's not very high), it probably won't be thanks to elance (which looks like a great website, don't get me wrong).
    - LanceJones 14y ago
      She got clients through other means... primarily by writing e-books that demonstrate her value and expertise. The e-books serve as a sales tool for her freelance services -- but they also generate a nice monthly income. Joanna (my wife) stays far away from sites like eLance, because those tend to be the places where cost-conscious people go to find freelancers. The heavy focus on pricing (by both buyers and sellers) on eLance makes it challenging to sell yourself based on other benefits (like writing copy that actually converts).
  - larrys 14y ago
    "she found that there are writers on eLance who charge $10 for an entire blog post and $20 for a press release." If you are selling something on a small scale (such as what your wife is doing) it's a wrong assumption to think that everyone knows the going rate for something in the marketplace. People overpay for products and services all the time because of convenience, FUD, or simply not knowing what a typical price in the marketplace is. Sometimes of course they also infer quality into pricing thinking that it is either inferior or that there must be some catch to low pricing as well. While at a certain point (large numbers) you can get hurt, at a smaller level it is not as much of an issue. "based on the value they would generate for her consulting clients" Agree. That is the key in many cases to the question of "what to charge" for something (once again it definitely depends on the scale of what you are doing obviously).
- jayzee 14y ago
  This comment is willfully ignorant. Are you just upset that he is competing on price? Given his cost structure it makes perfect sense for him to want to deliver desirable projects for great customers at a great price. Clearly you know that there is no fixed price that the market has decided professional iOS development is worth. And now that there is one additional professional iOS developer working from Vietnam the price turns out to be lower than what you think it should be.
  - bmelton 14y ago
    I think you've misread the situation, which might be clarified somewhat with the knowledge that (at least to my knowledge) Patrick isn't an iOS developer, and isn't in competition for the market. I read that as a perfectly valid suggestion that he could raise his rates, make more money, and enjoy the clientele even more in the same stroke.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- larrys 14y ago
  "As a self-outsourced American currently living in Vietnam I can significantly undercut $150/hr. ;)" Although I don't think this is what he is doing, marketing wise sometimes people want an explanation for why the price of a product or service is less than the going rate for a certain quality. Many people judge quality by price and by giving a reason (even one that doesn't hold water upon inspection by someone in the know) you can explain away doubts in a buyers mind and instil confidence. Some other examples (and there are many) are companies who claim their price is less because "we don't advertise" or "we cut out the middleman" etc. so we can charge less. Added: Above examples I am giving don't always explain away the difference in price being charged. So they could be a redherring disguising the real reason for the price differential.
- jasonkester 14y ago
  Well said. Long ago I made a point of cutting my consulting rate in half when I was working from the beach. I still put plenty away into savings and got to spend my free time climbing or doing whatever I wanted in a nice tropical environment. Life was good. Then one time I decided to not cut my rate in half on a quote. Nobody but me seemed to notice. So now I don't do that anymore. Life's even gooder.
deleted 14y ago
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ahoyhere 14y ago
I've hired cheap developers and I've hired $150+/hr developers and I can tell you, I still work with the $150+/hr developers and not with any of the cheap ones. There's a reason for that: low pricing represents a kind of fundamental laziness and bad business sense, which sadly tends to permeate to the real work, too. No doubt there are brilliant deals out there -- awesome devs who do great work, professionally, and don't know their worth -- SOMEWHERE. But considering how I've failed over & over to find them, I don't bother trying any more. If you're good, you can ignore everything that goes on at low price points. And well you should.

ovi256 14y ago

Pre-empting patio11's obvious response: do not undersell yourself, because that's how you're going to be bought if you do. Let the client tell you your price is high, if that's the case, no need to do it yourself.

patio11 14y ago

Can you explain exactly what about the service delivered is different with you living in Vietnam versus you living in, I don't know, Central Japan? Or, for that matter, living in whatever "One town too far to come into the office in San Francisco" is? I mean, sure, you have a cost of living which will let you attempt to compete on price for the worst projects from the worst customers, but why not just deliver desirable projects for great customers at the price which the market has decided professional iOS development is worth?

cageface 14y ago
I figure the awkward time zone difference for most U.S. clients has to count for some kind of haircut. But your point is well taken. If I do decide to shift my focus from my own products to consulting I'm not going to do it at too high a discount.
- patio11 14y ago
  Try not giving the discount on your next 3 quotes. See if it meaningfully increases client resistance. It probably won't. Can I tell you a story of something stupid I once did which nonetheless does not constrain me to always acting stupidly in the future? A particular prospect asked for a quote of my rate. I quoted my then-going rate and then, because I could not stop my fingers, said "But since we're Internet buddies I'll give you a discount." He said "OK, what's the final rate?" And I chopped 50% off. He accepted. Note that in no point prior to that had he evinced any problems with paying the actual rate and, indeed, the difference between X and 2X is meaningless to him because a) he's a millionaire and b) neither X nor 2X comes out of his pocket, it comes out of a budget of a corporate entity he happens to own a lot of shares in, and both of us assumed (accurately) that the engagement was going to make those shares worth substantially more than X, 2X, or 10X more. I set fire to five figures with two emails, and he probably doesn't even remember that conversation. Facepalm. But I don't have to facepalm next time, and neither do you.
  - orangethirty 14y ago
    Good lesson. I'm always selling myself for cheap because somehow I feel bad about charging for my code. I'll try it outside.
- mikeryan 14y ago
  I figure the awkward time zone difference for most U.S. clients has to count for some kind of haircut. To be fair I hire a lot of developers on a contract basis. If you were in Vietnam (which is pretty much always off when we're on in SF) I would expect a discount. If I'm paying SF rates I'd rather have you in SF. There's a very real communication and feedback loop in design and dev that is difficult to deal with when folks are on the other side of the world. (Heck I expect a developer in Cleveland to be less expensive then one in SF) All that being said, and to Patrick's point. One thing I learned running a consultancy was to never assume someone is looking for a less expensive solution. Once we stopped doing this and started charging what we felt we were worth, a lot of our cash flow issues started magically clearing up.
  - cageface 14y ago
    That makes sense. Essentially you're paying a premium for somebody that can afford to be in close proximity in a very expensive city. It only makes sense that somebody that can only work remotely and at inconvenient times for you isn't worth as much. But the going Elance rates are ridiculous. I can make more money here with way less hassle as an English teacher.
- dinkumthinkum 14y ago
  Yeah but previously you said you could undercut because you were in Vietnam. Now you say you think you probably need to undercut because you are in Vietnam. Big difference. :)
LanceJones 14y ago
When you don't know how to sell yourself, freelancers (and businesses!) compete based on price. It's the "obvious" choice but it wrongly assumes that's how potential customers make their purchase decisions. EDIT (additional context): When my wife quit her job at Intuit to start Copy Hackers, she also had to figure out how much to charge for her freelance copywriting work. After some investigation, she found that there are writers on eLance who charge $10 for an entire blog post and $20 for a press release. In addition, I make a very comfortable living working for a large software company -- enough that she could easily compete with the inexpensive off-shore writers because we have no real need for the extra money. However, none of that was factored into her decision, because she priced her services based on the value they would generate for her consulting clients -- and has moved her rates up twice in the past year from $50/hr to $150/hr. She has plenty of work at that rate, too...
- GFischer 14y ago
  But did she get that business from elance or from other contacts? I signed up for elance, looked at a few projects, and found myself seriously undercut (and I don't want to compromise on quality or bid on projects over my head). If I do get some projects at what I believe is a correct market rate (and it's not very high), it probably won't be thanks to elance (which looks like a great website, don't get me wrong).
  - LanceJones 14y ago
    She got clients through other means... primarily by writing e-books that demonstrate her value and expertise. The e-books serve as a sales tool for her freelance services -- but they also generate a nice monthly income. Joanna (my wife) stays far away from sites like eLance, because those tend to be the places where cost-conscious people go to find freelancers. The heavy focus on pricing (by both buyers and sellers) on eLance makes it challenging to sell yourself based on other benefits (like writing copy that actually converts).
- larrys 14y ago
  "she found that there are writers on eLance who charge $10 for an entire blog post and $20 for a press release." If you are selling something on a small scale (such as what your wife is doing) it's a wrong assumption to think that everyone knows the going rate for something in the marketplace. People overpay for products and services all the time because of convenience, FUD, or simply not knowing what a typical price in the marketplace is. Sometimes of course they also infer quality into pricing thinking that it is either inferior or that there must be some catch to low pricing as well. While at a certain point (large numbers) you can get hurt, at a smaller level it is not as much of an issue. "based on the value they would generate for her consulting clients" Agree. That is the key in many cases to the question of "what to charge" for something (once again it definitely depends on the scale of what you are doing obviously).
jayzee 14y ago
This comment is willfully ignorant. Are you just upset that he is competing on price? Given his cost structure it makes perfect sense for him to want to deliver desirable projects for great customers at a great price. Clearly you know that there is no fixed price that the market has decided professional iOS development is worth. And now that there is one additional professional iOS developer working from Vietnam the price turns out to be lower than what you think it should be.
- bmelton 14y ago
  I think you've misread the situation, which might be clarified somewhat with the knowledge that (at least to my knowledge) Patrick isn't an iOS developer, and isn't in competition for the market. I read that as a perfectly valid suggestion that he could raise his rates, make more money, and enjoy the clientele even more in the same stroke.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
larrys 14y ago
"As a self-outsourced American currently living in Vietnam I can significantly undercut $150/hr. ;)" Although I don't think this is what he is doing, marketing wise sometimes people want an explanation for why the price of a product or service is less than the going rate for a certain quality. Many people judge quality by price and by giving a reason (even one that doesn't hold water upon inspection by someone in the know) you can explain away doubts in a buyers mind and instil confidence. Some other examples (and there are many) are companies who claim their price is less because "we don't advertise" or "we cut out the middleman" etc. so we can charge less. Added: Above examples I am giving don't always explain away the difference in price being charged. So they could be a redherring disguising the real reason for the price differential.
jasonkester 14y ago
Well said. Long ago I made a point of cutting my consulting rate in half when I was working from the beach. I still put plenty away into savings and got to spend my free time climbing or doing whatever I wanted in a nice tropical environment. Life was good. Then one time I decided to not cut my rate in half on a quote. Nobody but me seemed to notice. So now I don't do that anymore. Life's even gooder.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

ahoyhere 14y ago

I've hired cheap developers and I've hired $150+/hr developers and I can tell you, I still work with the $150+/hr developers and not with any of the cheap ones. There's a reason for that: low pricing represents a kind of fundamental laziness and bad business sense, which sadly tends to permeate to the real work, too. No doubt there are brilliant deals out there -- awesome devs who do great work, professionally, and don't know their worth -- SOMEWHERE. But considering how I've failed over & over to find them, I don't bother trying any more. If you're good, you can ignore everything that goes on at low price points. And well you should.