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How Airbnb Earned Me $20,000 And A Restraining Order From My Landlord
- jack-r-abbit 14y agoIt isn't exactly clear but it seems this person has violated terms of his lease. So I'm not sure what is the issue here. Is he looking for sympathy? Or just warning others to look at their lease agreement before starting down this path?
- planetguy 14y agoNope, it's just a story. And a taste of things to come vis a vis the future of airbnb and similar services. I have no sympathy for this guy, and I have the greatest sympathy for his landlord. I'd be annoyed if anyone started using my rental property as a hotel due to the greater wear and tear; in fact, this is semi-common in the area where I own rental property so I keep an eye out for the possibility when selecting tenants.
- Karunamon 14y ago>wear and tear You charge $1200 to rent a dwelling out. It's $1200 flat. Whether 1 person @ 1200 or 3 people at @ 400 each. How do you somehow accrue more nebulous "wear and tear" from a temporary visitor than you would from a second lessee? It's still no more than two people at once.
- blafro 14y agoThis is not necessarily true. Some people rent out the living room couch as well as the spare bedroom. Besides in the second lessee case, the landlord at least gets to vet the second person.
- Karunamon 14y agoVetting only lessens the chance of catastrophic damage from an idiot tenant, though. It does nothing to mitigate wear and tear. That was what my now-masisvely-downvoted point was. The "wear and tear" argument is on pretty shaky ground.
- jack-r-abbit 14y agoThe wear and tear argument was not made along with a vetting argument. Vetting is one issue. Wear and tear is another issue. There is some ground between the perfect tenant and the idiot who burns a place down. There are all those people in the middle that go about their lives and little things happen. But have you ever heard the saying "drive it like its a rental"? People will naturally be slightly more careful with things they own or have a direct responsibility to take care of. The more people you have using a space that are not directly responsible for its care, the more likely those little things will happen. We're not talking about the catastrophic damage. We're talking about things like the extra nicks in the banister caused by someone dragging their suitcase up the stairs. When you have a new person dragging their suitcase up (and then back down) the stairs once a week, the chances for additional nicks goes up. Eventually all those little things start to build up. And it is pretty easy for a one of those rotating guests that caused a little more damage to just move along since its not their apartment building. People who live there and have a responsibility for the place (and coincidentally have been vetted) are more likely to notify the landlord to get it corrected.
- debacle 14y agoTitle should read "How using AirBnB without first consulting my lease earned me $20,000 and a restraining order from my landlord."
- msrpotus 14y agoBut people violate leases in little ways all the time. As long as the renters didn't cause any additional problems, I don't see what the big deal is.
- jerf 14y ago$20,000 isn't "little ways".
- tgrass 14y agoI don't understand why the amount is important. He did not cause $20,000 in damages to the landlord. At most, he did $20,000 in damages to the hotel down the street.
- maratd 14y agoNo, he didn't. But he did do some damage. That's the nature of property, the more it's used, the more damage it accrues. By having "extra" people in the apartment, the property was being depreciated at a greater rate without compensation to the landlord.
- pyre 14y agoI'm unsure that this makes sense. If he had picked up a roommate instead of renting on ABnB, the landlord wouldn't have gotten more money, yet there would more 'more people' causing 'more damage.'
- mseebach 14y agoGenerally, the shorter time you're staying for, the less invested in the property and community you are. For an example, a guest will on average think less of making noise when coming in late than a tenant who will be having a longer term relationship with the neighbours.
- darylteo 14y agoHuh... I thought there are usually clauses regarding "subletting" when signing a rental lease? At least where I am anyway, "subletting" is generally frowned on.
- nsxwolf 14y agoI'm a landlord. The language in the lease I use clearly stipulates no subletting. There are very good reasons for this. I did a background check on my tenant, not every possible person my tenant may randomly hand the keys over to, unsupervised. It's really not the same thing as having guests over. That said, I'm not opposed to including some kind of pro-Airbnb language in my next lease. This is new territory so I don't know what it should be. A larger security deposit? A cut of the proceeds?
- ig1 14y agoWhat's in your lease might not matter, leases often contain clauses which are completely unenforceable which courts can freely choose to ignore if they believe the term is unreasonable.
- nsxwolf 14y agoI'm pretty sure I can get "you can't charge other people money to live here" to stick. A no subletting clause is pretty standard where I'm from and it seems to apply here.
- tptacek 14y agoIn Chicago and iirc San Francisco, landlords are required to accept reasonable subletting arrangements; no-sublet clauses are unenforceable --- but requirements to get the approval of the landlord are.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
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- hack_edu 14y agoAgain and again, people who use Airbnb to 'hack' the rental market get little sympathy from me when the chickens come to roost. If your landlord was interested in running a tenement home/boarding house/hotel, they wouldn't sign you into a year-long lease. Also, and I know this has been hashed out before on these comment threads but he's grossing $30k a year on the back of his landlord. The landlord has every right to be upset and take action. The author of the post seems shocked that he's in violation of anything. Perhaps he'd like to share excerpts of his lease before he feigns such shock. Come on, the guy lives alone in a 3+ bedroom apartment in Brooklyn. We all know he signed that lease specifically to run a pseudo-hotel business under the guise of an Airbnb profile. He whines that he can't afford to live in the New York rental market without roommates; so get roommates or move somewhere cheaper. BTW, the author is a professional writer who (gasp!) has a brand new startup to plug. edit: It sounds like this guy has a sincere love for the experiences and newfound social life he's found when acting as an ambassador for his city. His heart is in the right place. He would make a great Couchsurfing host and probably make even greater, long-lasting relationships.
- ed209 14y ago"If your landlord was interested in running a tenement home/boarding house/hotel" - then he would have to staff it himself too, promote it and take the risk of no bookings. With a tenant he has someone making sure the place is looked after + he has a contracted income for the whole 12 months. By the sound of this place, the landlord could probably do quite well out of airbnb. But in that case, why not just approach the guy and cut a deal or explain that he wants him out to rent the place himself?
- hack_edu 14y agoYes, though if the landlord had a hand in the operation I'd imagine it would have to be a legal business. This means taxes, insurance, wages, administration costs, permits that probably make it more trouble than its worth.
- fennecfoxen 14y ago
- uptown 14y agoSo he's: 1. Violated his lease. 2. Documented exactly how much income he received during that violation. 3. Probably thew up some red flags to ensure the IRS double-checks that he declares that income on his tax returns. And all of this before he finds out what the courts have to say about his actions.
- drpgq 14y agoI do wonder just how much Airbnb income isn't declared for tax purposes.
- rprasad 14y agoHopefully none, since Airbnb reports the income it pays out on Form 1099.
- rprasad 14y agoOf all the comments I made today, this was the one I least expected to be downvoted...
- jdmichal 14y agoI wonder how many home owners renting through AirBnB properly report commercial use of their home to the property appraiser for homestead exemption purposes. My guess is zero.
- yardie 14y agoOh boy, I wonder if this guys knows what he's up against tomorrow (7th, June). If he's lucky the landlord will just tell him not to do it again. If not they'll be allowed to rip up the lease; now he's got 2 problems.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- heliodor 14y agoIn general, I'd have to agree this is a clear violation of his lease and doesn't deserve sympathy, but have you guys seen the piles and piles of legalese in these New York City leases? The lease itself doesn't deserve sympathy! For example, my lease last year from a private landlord even stipulated I'm not allowed to go to court and must use arbitration instead. I didn't think through it well, but next time I'll know better. It didn't become an issue though.
- fleitz 14y agoSee a clause like that would be handy in a case like this, no restraining order because the landlord can't use the court.
- heliodor 14y agoNew York is considered much friendlier towards renters than most other places. It's generally agreed(?) arbitration favors the repeat customer (the business) because why would you bite the hand that feeds you? So, I'd say arbitration is not as good as it sounds from a first glance. Does anyone have any insight to cast on this whole arbitration system?
- khuey 14y agoI've never lived in NYC, so I have no idea how ridiculous the leases are there, but restrictions on subleasing are common everywhere.
- engtech 14y agoI wonder if the IRS will ever start targetingthe more popular AirBnd profiles. I imagine most people do not declare the income, and $20k a year is significant revenue.
- ari_ 14y agoWhy would you imagine that? It's all there.. AirBNB issues a 1099 http://www.airbnb.com/help/question/122 http://www.airbnb.com/help/question/122.
- Fizzadar 14y agoOn the plus side of it all; $20,000 still earned! Not surprising landlords have caught on either, a good warning to anyone else selling their spare rooms.
- khuey 14y agoAfter taxes, legal costs, and the slight risk of getting evicted, $20,000 is not that much money.
- nsxwolf 14y agoThe more I think about this and how it impacts me as a landlord, I am starting to see Airbnb as (warning: the following analogy is not perfect) the Napster of lodging. I think they'd better step up and become the iTunes of lodging in this regard, before more news stories like this start creating a rift between landlords and Airbnb.
- cube13 14y agoI don't think it's that much of an issue, really. The problem isn't on Airbnb's end. It's on the renters that are giving up their rental property without examining the contracts that they signed. Airbnb could probably be treated the same as subletting or renting out the property, so any clauses in the lease/association contracts that covers that should cover Airbnb. The important thing for you, as a landlord, should be to make this clear on the contract. Whether it's increasing the deposit or rent if the renter wants to open up the property to Airbnb-like usage or just not allowing it period, it should be clear in the contract. EDIT: Airbnb actually does state this in their terms of service: >Accordingly, you represent and warrant that any Listing you post and the booking of, or Guest stay at, an Accommodation in a Listing you post (i) will not breach any agreements you have entered into with any third parties and (ii) will (a) be in compliance with all applicable laws, Tax requirements, and rules and regulations that may apply to any Accommodation included in a Listing you post, including, but not limited to, zoning laws and laws governing rentals of residential and other properties and (b) not conflict with the rights of third parties
- nsxwolf 14y agoSure, but why not actively reach out to landlords (and city governments, etc)? Wouldn't it be better for Airbnb and everyone else if both (a) and (b) became less likely to be impediments? I am in a fairly rare position where I'm feeling that I would actually be receptive to advocacy (and I'm a very stubborn person), but nobody's advocating anything to me yet. I feel like a music publisher in the year 2000 saying "Great idea! What would you like to see in a downloadable music service?"
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- subpixel 14y agoCrazy: I had the same landlord. I drove by his management office on Box Street last week and saw it was turned into a hotel, and now I see the luxury lofts listed on Airbnb. He's not a normal landlord, he's a shark. He owns several dozen buildings, prefers paying fines to getting permission, and once had our whole building manned with thugs to prevent a city agency from entering the building and confirming that he was constructing a unit on the roof without a permit. He even connected several of his buildings' toilets and sinks directly to storm drainage pipes, dumping raw sewage straight into the creek (http://bit.ly/L3f8Ey http://bit.ly/L3f8Ey).
- roguecoder 14y agoThose sorts of actions are what regulation was supposed to prevent. The current option, of crowd-sourcing information about possible lodging, wasn't previously possible. While we still need regulation to prevent the dumping of raw sewage, we could get so much more out of the space we have with decentralized, information-rich decision making. Plus, it's not like regulation has actually kept people like him from doing illegal things. As long as the punishment is "a fine" breaking the law is just another cost of doing business. If instead the government could evict him from his properties he might possible decide its worth following the law.
- ImprovedSilence 14y agoOut of all the bickering in this entire thread, finally a comment that gives some insight on the other guy. Well done.
- subpixel 14y agoCrazy: I had the same landlord. I drove by his management last week and saw it was turned into a hotel, and now I see the luxury lofts listed on Airbnb.
- BadLogInMyAss 14y agoYou'd think it would be AirBnB. What is "airbnib" supposed to mean?
- subpixel 14y agoCrazy: I had the same landlord. I drove by his management office on Box Street last week and saw it was turned into a hotel, and now I see the luxury lofts listed on Airbnb.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- hangnail_lobby 14y agoLast time I used AirBNB, I rented an apartment, and 1 hr after I arrived the landlord showed up banging on the apartment door, furious, threatening to call the police. Thankfully, my social skills calmed her down, but now the apartment leasee (lessee?) is knee deep in legal matters. Clearly the lessee broke the lease, however I'm sure she didn't really understand so at the time. AirBNB needs to be much clearer in the listing process of the possibility and legal ramifications of violating one's lease. Especially since it ends up hurting not just the people listing apartments, and apartment owners, but also AirBNB customers who trust the listings on the service to be legitimate and lawful.
- nostromo 14y agoIf they're throwing the book at you -- throw it right back. Tell your landlord that you're going to find the hotel closest to your apartment and show up with printouts of their newest illegal competitor: your landlord. It sucks to get the government involved with these disputes, but he opened the door.
- njharman 14y agoWhy do you imagine landlord would be illegal competitor? Also, petty retaliation against someone exercising their legal right to enforce contract is morally suspect. Bordering on sociopathic.
- nostromo 14y agoNew York hotels are highly regulated. I'm making the assumption that the landlord doesn't have the right permits (and isn't paying the taxes) to run a hotel. The point is there are no clean actors here. A landlord running an illegal hotel and a renter that broke their lease. But thanks for calling me a sociopath. ;)
- uptown 14y agoNYC Cracks Down on Illegal Hotels http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20120427/HOSPITALITY_TOURISM/120429892 http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20120427/HOSPITALITY_TO...
- yuhong 14y agoPhoto of restraining order: https://twitter.com/chrisdannen/status/209798659473285121/photo/1/large https://twitter.com/chrisdannen/status/209798659473285121/ph...
- webjprgm 14y agoAlmost every rental agreement I've ever signed disallows sub-letting. They also have rules about having people come to stay (as roommates, rather than as sublessee.) no sympathy whatsoever. Now why did the landlord decide to list rooms him/herself? That's interesting. Could Airbnb become a way for small-business hotels to book rooms? Generally landlords don't want short-term tenants for various reasons. I wonder if the Airbnb idea, which plays on the social aspect of borrowing an individual's house vs. dealing with an dispassionate corporate entity, enables leasing of smaller properties to work. If that's the case, then a landlord seeking to run Airbnb listings to turn a few rooms in an apartment complex into a hotel might eventually run into trouble if this kind of arrangement becomes common on Airbnb, since then you lose the social aspect that was making the tenants well-behaved. With tenants who might abuse the property a small apartment landlord probably would not want to deal with them. Maybe an enterprising landlord could put in a clause claiming 50% (or more) of the revenues from Airbnb if any tenant chooses to use it. In fact, maybe the OP should offer such an arrangement to the landlord as a settlement and thus be able to remove the restraining order and continue making some profit.
- user49598 14y ago"which in the pricey New York rental market is tantamount to eviction" Running a hostel in your apt for extra cash doesn't help that situation. You're just contributing to driving rent up even further.
- user49598 14y ago"which in the pricey New York rental market is tantamount to eviction" Running a hostel in your apt for extra cash doesn't help that situation. You're just contributing to driving rent up even further.