4 ms·

I'm OK letting religious institutions keep their tax exemption, but we should make them adhere to the same standards as 501(c)(3) organizations (non-profits). A

I'm OK letting religious institutions keep their tax exemption, but we should make them adhere to the same standards as 501(c)(3) organizations (non-profits). A whole lot of churches would either start paying taxes, or expose themselves as frauds with those financial transparency requirements.

r00fus 2y ago
This exactly - the existing hypocrisy leads to religious organizations essentially being tax-exempt political organizations.
nickpeterson 2y ago
I think you’re right, but it’s probably better to try and remove their exemption and then settle on this. They’ll scream either way because unethical hucksters will do anything to keep fleecing people.
- edmundsauto 2y ago
  It might make them feel even more empowered to inject their religious beliefs into politics. Nowadays there is a paper thin pretend curtain around that, I believe, due in part to tax exemption.
PopAlongKid 2y ago
There is a loophole where a religious organization doesn't even have to file any paperwork with the IRS to establish its tax exempt status. While $5,000 doesn't sound like a lot, that limit was probably set many years or decades ago and never adjusted for inflation (so the original intention could well have been a much higher level of revenue). "Tax Exempt Organization Search (Pub. 78 data) is based on information received in applications seeking recognition of exemption under Internal Revenue Code section 501(c)(3). Churches, their integrated auxiliaries, conventions or associations of churches, and public charities whose annual gross receipts are normally not more than $5,000 may be treated as tax-exempt without filing an application. Also, many churches are included in group exemptions (see below). Thus, they may not be listed in Tax Exempt Organization Search (Pub. 78 data)." https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/contributors/other-eligible-donees https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/contributors/other...
Alupis 2y ago
This doesn't work in practice, because of freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, and separation of church and state, ie. constitutionally guaranteed rights. Taxing churches would then be a way for government to suppress and eliminate religion/religious organizations they do not like. Start taxing today with a "reasonable" tax, and tomorrow you can raise tax obligations until operation is unsustainable. A la "subsidize things you want more of, tax things you want less of". Despite what non-religious and/or anti-religious people may want, this is untenable and almost certainly unconstitutional. As an aside - the federal government has plenty of money. We don't need to go looking in the seat cushions for pocket change. Instead of "Reining in America's $3.3T Tax-Exempt Economy", we should be "Reining in America's Overindulgent Lifestyle and Runaway Spending Spree".
- toast0 2y ago
  > Taxing churches would then be a way for government to suppress and eliminate religion/religious organizations they do not like. I don't know what the IRS standards are for recognizing religions, but taxing unrecognized religions and not taxing recognized religions seems like a bigger potential for suppression of undesired religions than taxing all of them. That said, I don't think I've heard of a case where IRS/government refused to acknowledge a claimed religious organization? Of course, you can't have free exercise of religion if it's taxed. I do think it'd be nice to have public tax returns or similar, but I guess that's really for the membership to demand more than the government.
  - sneak 2y ago
    > That said, I don't think I've heard of a case where IRS/government refused to acknowledge a claimed religious organization? Perhaps illustrating your point, but worth noting anyhow: the dangerous for-profit cult of Scientology actually had to infiltrate the IRS with their own people to get their tax exempt status. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White
- guntars 2y ago
  By that logic, does having philosophical or political discussions at a local coffee shop once a week qualify it for a tax exempt status?
sneak 2y ago
Religious organizations are not tax exempt. Congress is authority-exempt from making laws that can apply taxes to them in the first place. It's not like we tax everyone, then exempt religious organizations; the "everyone" that is able to be taxed does not include establishments of religion in the first place, thanks to the wording of 1A.
- vundercind 2y ago
  Sure they can. They can’t selectively tax only the ones they don’t like. Which is actually closer to what happens now.

r00fus 2y ago

This exactly - the existing hypocrisy leads to religious organizations essentially being tax-exempt political organizations.

nickpeterson 2y ago

I think you’re right, but it’s probably better to try and remove their exemption and then settle on this. They’ll scream either way because unethical hucksters will do anything to keep fleecing people.

edmundsauto 2y ago
It might make them feel even more empowered to inject their religious beliefs into politics. Nowadays there is a paper thin pretend curtain around that, I believe, due in part to tax exemption.

PopAlongKid 2y ago

There is a loophole where a religious organization doesn't even have to file any paperwork with the IRS to establish its tax exempt status. While $5,000 doesn't sound like a lot, that limit was probably set many years or decades ago and never adjusted for inflation (so the original intention could well have been a much higher level of revenue). "Tax Exempt Organization Search (Pub. 78 data) is based on information received in applications seeking recognition of exemption under Internal Revenue Code section 501(c)(3). Churches, their integrated auxiliaries, conventions or associations of churches, and public charities whose annual gross receipts are normally not more than $5,000 may be treated as tax-exempt without filing an application. Also, many churches are included in group exemptions (see below). Thus, they may not be listed in Tax Exempt Organization Search (Pub. 78 data)." https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/contributors/other-eligible-donees https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/contributors/other...

Alupis 2y ago

This doesn't work in practice, because of freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, and separation of church and state, ie. constitutionally guaranteed rights. Taxing churches would then be a way for government to suppress and eliminate religion/religious organizations they do not like. Start taxing today with a "reasonable" tax, and tomorrow you can raise tax obligations until operation is unsustainable. A la "subsidize things you want more of, tax things you want less of". Despite what non-religious and/or anti-religious people may want, this is untenable and almost certainly unconstitutional. As an aside - the federal government has plenty of money. We don't need to go looking in the seat cushions for pocket change. Instead of "Reining in America's $3.3T Tax-Exempt Economy", we should be "Reining in America's Overindulgent Lifestyle and Runaway Spending Spree".

toast0 2y ago
> Taxing churches would then be a way for government to suppress and eliminate religion/religious organizations they do not like. I don't know what the IRS standards are for recognizing religions, but taxing unrecognized religions and not taxing recognized religions seems like a bigger potential for suppression of undesired religions than taxing all of them. That said, I don't think I've heard of a case where IRS/government refused to acknowledge a claimed religious organization? Of course, you can't have free exercise of religion if it's taxed. I do think it'd be nice to have public tax returns or similar, but I guess that's really for the membership to demand more than the government.
- sneak 2y ago
  > That said, I don't think I've heard of a case where IRS/government refused to acknowledge a claimed religious organization? Perhaps illustrating your point, but worth noting anyhow: the dangerous for-profit cult of Scientology actually had to infiltrate the IRS with their own people to get their tax exempt status. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Snow_White
guntars 2y ago
By that logic, does having philosophical or political discussions at a local coffee shop once a week qualify it for a tax exempt status?

sneak 2y ago

Religious organizations are not tax exempt. Congress is authority-exempt from making laws that can apply taxes to them in the first place. It's not like we tax everyone, then exempt religious organizations; the "everyone" that is able to be taxed does not include establishments of religion in the first place, thanks to the wording of 1A.

vundercind 2y ago
Sure they can. They can’t selectively tax only the ones they don’t like. Which is actually closer to what happens now.