5 ms·

How the hell is the stasi relevant in any way whatsoever?

pjmlp 2y ago
The point that you have to ask that question, in the context of state surveillance, is quite telling.
bjoli 2y ago
I am not German, but when I lived in Germany I got the impression they were very wary of political proposals that infringed on the privacy and liberties that the German people enjoyed. Not that they didn't pass any shitty laws, but that the question "how can this be misused?" always was present.
- ds_opseeker 2y ago
  This is one of the traits I admire the most about German culture; awareness that government can abuse its power. In the US, by contrast, I see one political power eager to give powers to their candidates which they would hate to give to the rival party. It's like they've forgotten that they are giving power to the Government, not to a party, and if the other party gets power they get those powers.
  - inglor_cz 2y ago
    "This is one of the traits I admire the most about German culture; awareness that government can abuse its power." This trait can be found all over the former Soviet Bloc, because we have had enough experience with either one or two homicidal authoritarian regimes (the Nazis and the Communists). That experience was paid in a lot of pain and blood. Places like Sweden, the UK, Canada, Australia or the US, where governments within living memory weren't as oppressive against their own population, have a lot of naive people, "well, they mean it well".
    - marcus_holmes 2y ago
      Australia is quietly incredibly authoritarian. The rules are really important, and government is encouraged to solve social problems by creating new laws.
    - sebastianz 2y ago
      I agree but I fear this is now fading too. '89 was 35 years ago, and for all generations younger than mine (i'm 40) this part of history will be much more abstract and 'out of living memory'.
      - inglor_cz 2y ago
        Yes, such is the nature of the world, that it buries horrors under layers of time. In some ways, such healing is necessary, even though it comes with risk of repeating the same mistakes. A week ago, I was in Zaragoza and there is a Goya Museum there. His prints of the horrors of the Napoleonic Wars are absolutely terrifying and ghastly. Today, the French and the Spanish people are on friendly terms. In a hypothetical world where the witnesses of such horrors still lived, those nations would probably be a lot less friendly and more resentful.
      - deutschepost 2y ago
        Thanks to the themes which are covered in German history lessons, it will never truly disappear. I can’t remember a single lesson which didn’t cover one of those themes.
        pjmlp 2y ago
        Yet many students aren't paying attention, given current voting trends.
  - latency-guy2 2y ago
    I don't get that sense at all from Germans, since we're citing some stereotypes, my view on it was that Germans "love" the bureaucracy, and they continue to accumulate it. The USA is anti-government and authority, fundamentally from the beginning all the way through modern times. Freedom is colloquially synonymous with America and that's in contrast with government, "Live free or die" is the motto of millions of Americans and in various capacities, sometimes alliterated to on state flags.
    - marcus_holmes 2y ago
      > Freedom is colloquially synonymous with America Only in the USA, for US citizens. Outside the USA; not so much. Germans do love their bureaucracy, but I get the feeling that's seen as a brake on the politicians; it's hard to make the bureaucracy change, so radical politicians can't do too much damage.
      - mnw21cam 2y ago
        > Only in the USA, for US citizens. Outside the USA; not so much. Yeah. When I think of the US and freedom, the first thing that comes to mind is "The country where you're not even allowed to cross the road."
    - arendtio 2y ago
      Germans don't love bureaucracy; in fact, we hate it. But everything must be very correct and thought through, which leads to complicated laws. On top of that, we have some misplaced idea that everybody must have a lot of local laws. We call it federalism, and it has some benefits, but I think we use it for far too many things. Both things together make it very hard to reduce bureaucracy or offer digital services. It is very embarrassing.
- anthk 2y ago
  Yet they have laws even on personal web pages and even gopher holes, where you have to put your personal address on the public.
  - dabber21 2y ago
    only if you do business
    - anthk 2y ago
      No, I've seen personal pages neither related on selling products nor providing them.
      - morsch 2y ago
        There's a lot of confusion about this and people are understandably and correctly erring on the side of caution. https://www.bmuv.de/themen/verbraucherschutz/digitaler-verbraucherschutz/impressumspflicht https://www.bmuv.de/themen/verbraucherschutz/digitaler-verbr... https://www.impressum-generator.de/2016/11/impressumspflicht-private-homepage/ https://www.impressum-generator.de/2016/11/impressumspflicht...
wafflemaker 2y ago
You probably never lived in a communist (or any ultra authoritarian) state or never talked to somebody that did. The amount of horror that comes with it is beyond imagination, erosion of basic rights and threat of violent punishment for even the smallest infraction being on top of the list. Everyone could be snitching on you and everything could be used against you. Your phone scanning your images probably brings back memories to the older people that most of politicians are.

The point that you have to ask that question, in the context of state surveillance, is quite telling.

I am not German, but when I lived in Germany I got the impression they were very wary of political proposals that infringed on the privacy and liberties that the German people enjoyed. Not that they didn't pass any shitty laws, but that the question "how can this be misused?" always was present.

ds_opseeker 2y ago
This is one of the traits I admire the most about German culture; awareness that government can abuse its power. In the US, by contrast, I see one political power eager to give powers to their candidates which they would hate to give to the rival party. It's like they've forgotten that they are giving power to the Government, not to a party, and if the other party gets power they get those powers.
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  "This is one of the traits I admire the most about German culture; awareness that government can abuse its power." This trait can be found all over the former Soviet Bloc, because we have had enough experience with either one or two homicidal authoritarian regimes (the Nazis and the Communists). That experience was paid in a lot of pain and blood. Places like Sweden, the UK, Canada, Australia or the US, where governments within living memory weren't as oppressive against their own population, have a lot of naive people, "well, they mean it well".
  - marcus_holmes 2y ago
    Australia is quietly incredibly authoritarian. The rules are really important, and government is encouraged to solve social problems by creating new laws.
  - sebastianz 2y ago
    I agree but I fear this is now fading too. '89 was 35 years ago, and for all generations younger than mine (i'm 40) this part of history will be much more abstract and 'out of living memory'.
    - inglor_cz 2y ago
      Yes, such is the nature of the world, that it buries horrors under layers of time. In some ways, such healing is necessary, even though it comes with risk of repeating the same mistakes. A week ago, I was in Zaragoza and there is a Goya Museum there. His prints of the horrors of the Napoleonic Wars are absolutely terrifying and ghastly. Today, the French and the Spanish people are on friendly terms. In a hypothetical world where the witnesses of such horrors still lived, those nations would probably be a lot less friendly and more resentful.
    - deutschepost 2y ago
      Thanks to the themes which are covered in German history lessons, it will never truly disappear. I can’t remember a single lesson which didn’t cover one of those themes.
      - pjmlp 2y ago
        Yet many students aren't paying attention, given current voting trends.
- latency-guy2 2y ago
  I don't get that sense at all from Germans, since we're citing some stereotypes, my view on it was that Germans "love" the bureaucracy, and they continue to accumulate it. The USA is anti-government and authority, fundamentally from the beginning all the way through modern times. Freedom is colloquially synonymous with America and that's in contrast with government, "Live free or die" is the motto of millions of Americans and in various capacities, sometimes alliterated to on state flags.
  - marcus_holmes 2y ago
    > Freedom is colloquially synonymous with America Only in the USA, for US citizens. Outside the USA; not so much. Germans do love their bureaucracy, but I get the feeling that's seen as a brake on the politicians; it's hard to make the bureaucracy change, so radical politicians can't do too much damage.
    - mnw21cam 2y ago
      > Only in the USA, for US citizens. Outside the USA; not so much. Yeah. When I think of the US and freedom, the first thing that comes to mind is "The country where you're not even allowed to cross the road."
  - arendtio 2y ago
    Germans don't love bureaucracy; in fact, we hate it. But everything must be very correct and thought through, which leads to complicated laws. On top of that, we have some misplaced idea that everybody must have a lot of local laws. We call it federalism, and it has some benefits, but I think we use it for far too many things. Both things together make it very hard to reduce bureaucracy or offer digital services. It is very embarrassing.
anthk 2y ago
Yet they have laws even on personal web pages and even gopher holes, where you have to put your personal address on the public.
- dabber21 2y ago
  only if you do business
  - anthk 2y ago
    No, I've seen personal pages neither related on selling products nor providing them.
    - morsch 2y ago
      There's a lot of confusion about this and people are understandably and correctly erring on the side of caution. https://www.bmuv.de/themen/verbraucherschutz/digitaler-verbraucherschutz/impressumspflicht https://www.bmuv.de/themen/verbraucherschutz/digitaler-verbr... https://www.impressum-generator.de/2016/11/impressumspflicht-private-homepage/ https://www.impressum-generator.de/2016/11/impressumspflicht...

wafflemaker 2y ago

You probably never lived in a communist (or any ultra authoritarian) state or never talked to somebody that did. The amount of horror that comes with it is beyond imagination, erosion of basic rights and threat of violent punishment for even the smallest infraction being on top of the list. Everyone could be snitching on you and everything could be used against you. Your phone scanning your images probably brings back memories to the older people that most of politicians are.