6 ms·

So to save a little bit of plastic you'd spend much more energy on everything else? Why not just use glass for milk and paper for tea?

kkfx 2y ago
Energy I can make (and I make) locally, for instance from p.v. instead of spending in plastic that demand energy anyway. There is a common misconception about modern cities than "far past one". Nowadays we do not simply live in dense area walking around with stairs having next to no equipment at home like in the aforementioned past where people live tight but also simply, working in most cases "from home" meaning they just go downstairs and they are in their shops. Modern cities demand a gazillion of things, just a building for: - clean water - hot water - sewers - fire safety - elevators - seismic safety - HVAC - .... Demand MUCH more energy than modern wood based single-family homes (if well built ad without exaggeration of course) both to be build, operated, maintained and evolved. We are not anymore in the era of rock+wood homes passing from a generation to another for centuries with little to no changes. With "new deal" tech we simply can't live in cities. Just take a look at a mean apartment in your country, in Italy a mean apartment need 20-30kW thermal power to heat in the winter simply because even if it's less and less cold most of them was built in an era where no one care about insulation. Modern homes with 1kW electrical can heat and cool themselves in the mean for the same country. In single family homes there is typically room to recharge from p.v. cars if you WFH or working in a spread area to recharge them from p.v. at work, the same model. In cities it's simply not possible. How much energy this alone means? Now try seeing "future personal air mobility" sold as urban https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/uam-full-report.pdf https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/uam-full-... but definitively NOT urban, cities can't simply adapt, you need to rebuild them to adapt more than few evolutionary steps. In a spread (not too much of course) area you have plenty of space to adapt and buildings are small, they can be made in recyclable materials for most of their structure and the same is valid for local infra. Cities demand big harbors, airports, highways who consume enormous resources and can't change much, a spread are use maybe even LESS resources and being spread can slowly adapt. Try just seen the nightmare of Jakarta and their "solution" https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-01/indonesia-sets-2024-deadline-to-move-its-new-capital-to-borneo https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-01/indonesia... can you measure how big waste of resources such move represent?
- CorrectHorseBat 2y ago
  >Modern homes with 1kW electrical can heat and cool themselves in the mean for the same country. In single family homes there is typically room to recharge from p.v. cars if you WFH or working in a spread area to recharge them from p.v. at work, the same model. In a dense city most people don't even have a car. I live in an apartment building from the 50's. With just 2 walls of our building retrofitted with insulation I now barely need any heating in winter, try that with a single family home. >Cities demand big harbors, airports, highways You still need them with spread, only more roads to spread everything around.
  - kkfx 2y ago
    > In a dense city most people don't even have a car. Yes, but the city need a far more expensive metro network, surface buses and so on, witch in term of raw materials demand much more than cars and in term of energy demand the same or even more because metros have also stations and even with metros and buses we still need cars and van for a variety of activities, vehicles used for work (like a small Transit for a plumber or an electrician) but also usable for private stuff. The TCO is still not in favor of such model, despite many (from the interested ruling class) claim the inverse... > I live in an apartment building from the 50's. With just 2 walls of our building retrofitted with insulation I now barely need any heating in winter, try that with a single family home. This means that you live in a nice climate, where summers are not too hot and winters are mild. Such areas exists and are typically densely populated also because of the climate but they are a very little part of the inhabited earth, or you are in a less nice climate but being "in the middle" you get "free heat" from some apartments underneath and "insulation" from apartments over yours. Again that's true for some, but in TCO terms it's still not favorable for the humanity at a whole, only for some humans. If you are in mild climate a single family home would barely need heat as well, not if you get free heat from neighbors of course BUT a new single family home in the same climate can thanks to insulation and mere design (compact form, large windows on the southern side, roof/other element shielding the Sun in summer while allowing it pass in the winter etc) and while you might profit from your neighbors they still have to heat/cool anyway, it's good for you but it does not reduce the overall consumption. Just for a personal counter argument: I was living in an apartment from the '60s in a mild climate, it's heated with 24kW methane. I live now in a home twice the size/a bit more than twice the heated volume, in a much colder place and I heat with 1KW most of the time, climbing to 3-4kW few late night and early morning between January and February, the maximum absorption recorded for heating was at the end of January 2017 a single night with a minima of -24.8℃ (-12.64℉) with 6.3kW. In raw material terms electricity here means nuclear (I have p.v. with small storage, but not to heat the home at night) and the grid, gas means a much more raw material and energy hungry distribution network. So again building new home demand energy, but in their useful life we amortize it and we evolve. Remain in old buildings demand still more, many times more in many cases, just to keep them operational and we do not evolve. Can we change them now? A 40 apartment building build today respect of one 40 apartments from the '50s cost at least twice... You need to relocate 40 families for an year instead of putting a small container-home in the garden for two-thee month...

kkfx 2y ago

Energy I can make (and I make) locally, for instance from p.v. instead of spending in plastic that demand energy anyway. There is a common misconception about modern cities than "far past one". Nowadays we do not simply live in dense area walking around with stairs having next to no equipment at home like in the aforementioned past where people live tight but also simply, working in most cases "from home" meaning they just go downstairs and they are in their shops. Modern cities demand a gazillion of things, just a building for: - clean water - hot water - sewers - fire safety - elevators - seismic safety - HVAC - .... Demand MUCH more energy than modern wood based single-family homes (if well built ad without exaggeration of course) both to be build, operated, maintained and evolved. We are not anymore in the era of rock+wood homes passing from a generation to another for centuries with little to no changes. With "new deal" tech we simply can't live in cities. Just take a look at a mean apartment in your country, in Italy a mean apartment need 20-30kW thermal power to heat in the winter simply because even if it's less and less cold most of them was built in an era where no one care about insulation. Modern homes with 1kW electrical can heat and cool themselves in the mean for the same country. In single family homes there is typically room to recharge from p.v. cars if you WFH or working in a spread area to recharge them from p.v. at work, the same model. In cities it's simply not possible. How much energy this alone means? Now try seeing "future personal air mobility" sold as urban https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/uam-full-report.pdf https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/uam-full-... but definitively NOT urban, cities can't simply adapt, you need to rebuild them to adapt more than few evolutionary steps. In a spread (not too much of course) area you have plenty of space to adapt and buildings are small, they can be made in recyclable materials for most of their structure and the same is valid for local infra. Cities demand big harbors, airports, highways who consume enormous resources and can't change much, a spread are use maybe even LESS resources and being spread can slowly adapt. Try just seen the nightmare of Jakarta and their "solution" https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-01/indonesia-sets-2024-deadline-to-move-its-new-capital-to-borneo https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-11-01/indonesia... can you measure how big waste of resources such move represent?

CorrectHorseBat 2y ago
>Modern homes with 1kW electrical can heat and cool themselves in the mean for the same country. In single family homes there is typically room to recharge from p.v. cars if you WFH or working in a spread area to recharge them from p.v. at work, the same model. In a dense city most people don't even have a car. I live in an apartment building from the 50's. With just 2 walls of our building retrofitted with insulation I now barely need any heating in winter, try that with a single family home. >Cities demand big harbors, airports, highways You still need them with spread, only more roads to spread everything around.
- kkfx 2y ago
  > In a dense city most people don't even have a car. Yes, but the city need a far more expensive metro network, surface buses and so on, witch in term of raw materials demand much more than cars and in term of energy demand the same or even more because metros have also stations and even with metros and buses we still need cars and van for a variety of activities, vehicles used for work (like a small Transit for a plumber or an electrician) but also usable for private stuff. The TCO is still not in favor of such model, despite many (from the interested ruling class) claim the inverse... > I live in an apartment building from the 50's. With just 2 walls of our building retrofitted with insulation I now barely need any heating in winter, try that with a single family home. This means that you live in a nice climate, where summers are not too hot and winters are mild. Such areas exists and are typically densely populated also because of the climate but they are a very little part of the inhabited earth, or you are in a less nice climate but being "in the middle" you get "free heat" from some apartments underneath and "insulation" from apartments over yours. Again that's true for some, but in TCO terms it's still not favorable for the humanity at a whole, only for some humans. If you are in mild climate a single family home would barely need heat as well, not if you get free heat from neighbors of course BUT a new single family home in the same climate can thanks to insulation and mere design (compact form, large windows on the southern side, roof/other element shielding the Sun in summer while allowing it pass in the winter etc) and while you might profit from your neighbors they still have to heat/cool anyway, it's good for you but it does not reduce the overall consumption. Just for a personal counter argument: I was living in an apartment from the '60s in a mild climate, it's heated with 24kW methane. I live now in a home twice the size/a bit more than twice the heated volume, in a much colder place and I heat with 1KW most of the time, climbing to 3-4kW few late night and early morning between January and February, the maximum absorption recorded for heating was at the end of January 2017 a single night with a minima of -24.8℃ (-12.64℉) with 6.3kW. In raw material terms electricity here means nuclear (I have p.v. with small storage, but not to heat the home at night) and the grid, gas means a much more raw material and energy hungry distribution network. So again building new home demand energy, but in their useful life we amortize it and we evolve. Remain in old buildings demand still more, many times more in many cases, just to keep them operational and we do not evolve. Can we change them now? A 40 apartment building build today respect of one 40 apartments from the '50s cost at least twice... You need to relocate 40 families for an year instead of putting a small container-home in the garden for two-thee month...