4 ms·

Why? It is an emulation of a feature from other OS; why it should be indictment of Gnome? Gnome is perfectly usable without it. This widget is only for those, w

Why? It is an emulation of a feature from other OS; why it should be indictment of Gnome? Gnome is perfectly usable without it. This widget is only for those, who are so used to windows-ism and cannot let it go. Similarly, there is dash-to-dock extension, which emulates a feature from another popular OS. It is also indictment, that Gnome doesn't have macOS-like dock in the core? Is it an indictment of Windows shell, that is doesn't have such feature at all, neither in core nor in extension?

lupusreal 2y ago
> a feature from other OS From virtually every other OS for the past 25 years. That is reason enough to support it.
- vetinari 2y ago
  Look at the issue from other way: if you want this feature, you have a virtually every other OS to choose from. Those, who specifically do not want this feature, do not have such a luxury. They can choose this environment.
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    If you want the "feature" of not having this feature, you can disable it in most other DEs (certainly the Linux ones at least.). Gnome isn't doing anything clever by not having this widget as a first party option for users.
  - ivan_gammel 2y ago
    It is hardly the primary reason for anyone to choose OS or environment. Most people are starting and getting used to other interfaces. Sometimes people are using multiple OSes at the same time. For all those people consistency matters, either for smoother learning curve or for productivity. Thus either Gnome remains a niche solution for a very small group of people or it expands market share by adopting UX patterns from mainstream.
    - vetinari 2y ago
      This is really a non-factor, that has lim(0) impact on Gnome adoption. Mac never emulated this windows feature and it never hurt its adoption. If anything, it helped, because it wasn't associated with annoyances that the new users were getting away from. Btw, I'm also using windows/mac/(fedora,ubuntu,alma) at the same time. Bigger annoyance is changes between different versions of the same system (i.e. windows 10 -> windows 11) than difference between different systems.
    - mirpa 2y ago
      Gnome has practically no learning curve. Everything you need is top left/right corner and win/esc key.
    - happymellon 2y ago
      > Sometimes people are using multiple OSes at the same time. For all those people consistency matters I don't understand this statement. They are using multiple OS', are they really struggling to switch between MacOS and Windows that much? If they are, then Gnome is going to be the least of their problems.
      - ivan_gammel 2y ago
        Let me explain then: Linux has plenty of options for desktop environment. As a long time Windows user, I don’t care much about their features, I need a job to be done. I will not try to adapt (even if it is easy) or figure out why Gnome is better, I will choose something familiar and good enough. Gnome lost me before I even tried to use it. I don’t have such choice on Mac, so I‘m forced to use MacOS UI and adapt, and that’s not trivial thing for someone who knows their primary OS well. Difference in UI paradigms is visible and does hurt the performance.
        happymellon 2y ago
        If you are wanting something familiar to Windows, a start button and task bar will be the least of your issues. There is no desire to cater to Windows users because they move the target, "Oh you might have made this to be like Windows like we asked, but actually this is also not like Windows so I'll never use it anyway."
eptcyka 2y ago
Feature parity matters, especially if adoption is a goal. I'm not sure Gnome cares about adoption, but since they're on the back foot, and if they're wanting to increase adoption, it'd be in their best interests to have feature parity so that supporting Gnome does not require extra code to support entirely different UX paradigms. I personally love Linux, love Gnome, and, when I'm not paid, I only use these platforms. However, it is incredibly difficult to justify spending time on workarounds, and it is emotionally painful to see the Gnome team dig in their heels. I can't blame them for wanting to do things the way they see fit, they are a volunteer organization after all, but seeing them be actively averse to adoption is difficult.
- gary_0 2y ago
  > actively averse to adoption The Linux community has the weirdest gatekeeping. "We're not going to let you do that because it reminds us of proprietary software." When the Start menu is nothing but advertisements and user data is forcibly uploaded to the cloud, Windows users will look up and shout "save us!" and the Linux community will look down and whisper "no".
  - vetinari 2y ago
    Well, when windows users demand "windows, but gratis and without the annoyances", linux isn't it. You have to do some minor adjustment; just like you had to do with iPhone. It doesn't have task panel by default either.
- mirpa 2y ago
  Simplicity is feature on its own, you can't please everyone and you have other choices. Considering feature parity - I used small window managers in the past: Fvwm, Fluxbox, Pekwm... what made me eventually stick with Gnome was that It made things like Wifi, printing, mounting disk... seamless - on par with Windows. That is a lot more important for most users than customization, which can be overwhelming in environment like KDE (I haven't used it in years).
  - eptcyka 2y ago

lupusreal 2y ago

> a feature from other OS From virtually every other OS for the past 25 years. That is reason enough to support it.

vetinari 2y ago
Look at the issue from other way: if you want this feature, you have a virtually every other OS to choose from. Those, who specifically do not want this feature, do not have such a luxury. They can choose this environment.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  If you want the "feature" of not having this feature, you can disable it in most other DEs (certainly the Linux ones at least.). Gnome isn't doing anything clever by not having this widget as a first party option for users.
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  It is hardly the primary reason for anyone to choose OS or environment. Most people are starting and getting used to other interfaces. Sometimes people are using multiple OSes at the same time. For all those people consistency matters, either for smoother learning curve or for productivity. Thus either Gnome remains a niche solution for a very small group of people or it expands market share by adopting UX patterns from mainstream.
  - vetinari 2y ago
    This is really a non-factor, that has lim(0) impact on Gnome adoption. Mac never emulated this windows feature and it never hurt its adoption. If anything, it helped, because it wasn't associated with annoyances that the new users were getting away from. Btw, I'm also using windows/mac/(fedora,ubuntu,alma) at the same time. Bigger annoyance is changes between different versions of the same system (i.e. windows 10 -> windows 11) than difference between different systems.
  - mirpa 2y ago
    Gnome has practically no learning curve. Everything you need is top left/right corner and win/esc key.
  - happymellon 2y ago
    > Sometimes people are using multiple OSes at the same time. For all those people consistency matters I don't understand this statement. They are using multiple OS', are they really struggling to switch between MacOS and Windows that much? If they are, then Gnome is going to be the least of their problems.
    - ivan_gammel 2y ago
      Let me explain then: Linux has plenty of options for desktop environment. As a long time Windows user, I don’t care much about their features, I need a job to be done. I will not try to adapt (even if it is easy) or figure out why Gnome is better, I will choose something familiar and good enough. Gnome lost me before I even tried to use it. I don’t have such choice on Mac, so I‘m forced to use MacOS UI and adapt, and that’s not trivial thing for someone who knows their primary OS well. Difference in UI paradigms is visible and does hurt the performance.
      - happymellon 2y ago
        If you are wanting something familiar to Windows, a start button and task bar will be the least of your issues. There is no desire to cater to Windows users because they move the target, "Oh you might have made this to be like Windows like we asked, but actually this is also not like Windows so I'll never use it anyway."

eptcyka 2y ago

Feature parity matters, especially if adoption is a goal. I'm not sure Gnome cares about adoption, but since they're on the back foot, and if they're wanting to increase adoption, it'd be in their best interests to have feature parity so that supporting Gnome does not require extra code to support entirely different UX paradigms. I personally love Linux, love Gnome, and, when I'm not paid, I only use these platforms. However, it is incredibly difficult to justify spending time on workarounds, and it is emotionally painful to see the Gnome team dig in their heels. I can't blame them for wanting to do things the way they see fit, they are a volunteer organization after all, but seeing them be actively averse to adoption is difficult.

gary_0 2y ago
> actively averse to adoption The Linux community has the weirdest gatekeeping. "We're not going to let you do that because it reminds us of proprietary software." When the Start menu is nothing but advertisements and user data is forcibly uploaded to the cloud, Windows users will look up and shout "save us!" and the Linux community will look down and whisper "no".
- vetinari 2y ago
  Well, when windows users demand "windows, but gratis and without the annoyances", linux isn't it. You have to do some minor adjustment; just like you had to do with iPhone. It doesn't have task panel by default either.
mirpa 2y ago
Simplicity is feature on its own, you can't please everyone and you have other choices. Considering feature parity - I used small window managers in the past: Fvwm, Fluxbox, Pekwm... what made me eventually stick with Gnome was that It made things like Wifi, printing, mounting disk... seamless - on par with Windows. That is a lot more important for most users than customization, which can be overwhelming in environment like KDE (I haven't used it in years).
- eptcyka 2y ago