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> This Gentoo setup has /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin, and /usr/sbin all merged. I hope this isn't going to be the norm in the future, but Gentoo has been making my li

> This Gentoo setup has /bin, /sbin, /usr/bin, and /usr/sbin all merged. I hope this isn't going to be the norm in the future, but Gentoo has been making my life difficult for years as it is... it's as if the developers don't test or use what they are forcing on everyone.

rascul 2y ago
What issues have you experienced due to the merging of those directories?
- nubinetwork 2y ago
  That would imply that I've drank the Fedora/FDO/systemd Kool-Aid and trashed a perfectly working FHS. I have no interest in wasting the time trying to conform to their nonsense.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
    Okay; what problems would you expect to hit if you used a system where they were merged? (My best thought so far is having multiple hosts sharing a single /usr over NFS while having per-host root filesystems, but I've never actually seen that done. I've also thought about building a distro that kept its initramfs as root and just mounted everything else into it, but that's even further off the beaten path.)
    - nubinetwork 2y ago
      I can think of a few off the top of my head... - broken shell scripts that are hardcoded to "/bin/bash" rather than "/usr/bin/env bash" (this might work for a while, but what happens when they remove the symlink?) - broken compiles because "/lib" and "/lib64" no longer exist, because of the lack of testing prior to making the change on behalf of users - broken boots because initramfs (dracut/etc) isn't structured correctly after the change (see lack of testing). I'm sure there's more but I'm not their personal testing infrastructure. I just want an OS that works without having to fight someone every 3 weeks because "everyone else is doing it, so we should too".
      - comex 2y ago
        Are there actually plans to remove the symlink? My impression was that it’s intended to stay around pretty much forever.
        nubinetwork 2y ago
        The wiki doesn't say, and the mailing list reader hasn't worked since March 2023. (Yes I know MARC exists, but their interface is terrible) I wouldn't be surprised if they remove the symlink in a year because they consider it useless cruft.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
        I would think your first couple points are actually better on a merged system - if /bin==/usr/bin and /lib==/lib64==/usr/lib then scripts can use either /bin/bash or /usr/bin/bash and it'll work (and ditto for libraries). Granted, removing those symlinks would then be painful, but I haven't heard of that being proposed; if it has been and I'm just out of the loop then yeah that'd make me nervous. (Though in fairness, scripts really should use `/usr/bin/env bash` for portability anyways - /bin/bash was never more than a distro-specific quirk.) As to testing... yeah obviously this stuff should be thoroughly tested long before it hits users, but I was rather under the impression that it was tested extensively before getting to users. Again, if you've seen actual problems that made it past testing, feel free to point them out since that would greatly strengthen your criticism. > I just want an OS that works without having to fight someone every 3 weeks because "everyone else is doing it, so we should too". Are you super committed to Linux OSs? Because you might find the one of the BSDs or illumos more comfortable. Not that they never change (er, well, illumos might not), but at least it's not because of what anyone else does. (And as an aside: Don't take this as an endorsement of merged usr; I actually prefer a separate /usr myself because I lean towards thinking that it's reasonable to have a read-only root and a rw /usr, or /usr on shared NFS, or any number of other "weird" systems... but I also culturally favor the BSDs, so take that as you will. I just think that if we're going to find fault, we should have the best evidence/arguments possible.)
    - setopt 2y ago
      > My best thought so far is having multiple hosts sharing a single /usr over NFS while having per-host root filesystems HPC systems already have better systems for this sort of thing, e.g. Lmod which is modular. I don’t think it’s a great idea to have /usr itself on NFS, given that things like /usr/bin/env is in most script shebangs and IMO should be stored locally. On some systems, many potential login shells are also stored in /usr/bin and not /bin.
      - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
        Thanks, I don't recall seeing Lmod ( https://lmod.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html https://lmod.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html ) before, I'll have to look at it. Kinda reminds me of GNU stash. Though part of me agrees that there are reliability concerns to keep in mind, the other part of me still thinks root on NFS is normal, at which point /usr seems rather minor in comparison:) I suspect some of this is cultural or a result of what you're used to.
wannacboatmovie 2y ago
They might as well rename it C:/Linux/System32 while they're at it. The separate paths were originally done for reasons but since you can't install a mainstream distro with < 512MB RAM these days (not even Alpine) some of those reasons are moot. Linux is becoming less and less like UNIX every day.
- initplus 2y ago
  The original history behind a lot of original UNIX directory structure is engineers running out of disk space on a PDP-11 50 years ago and shuffling things around to keep the system operating. Other reasoning has been piled on top over the years.
  - Athas 2y ago
    Yes, and undoing this means it's no longer UNIX as it will no longer run on that PDP-11! (Unless you can afford a bigger disk I guess.)
    - NekkoDroid 2y ago
      If "being UNIX" hinges on the fucking filesystem structure I honestly am fine with it "not being UNIX"
      - pjmlp 2y ago
        It does, however it is actually less strict than I had in mind, https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/
      - eru 2y ago
        I suspect you missed the sarcasm in Athas' comment?
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
nhellman 2y ago
This is not forced by Gentoo. My Gentoo installs have separate bin directories which is what I got by default.

rascul 2y ago

What issues have you experienced due to the merging of those directories?

nubinetwork 2y ago
That would imply that I've drank the Fedora/FDO/systemd Kool-Aid and trashed a perfectly working FHS. I have no interest in wasting the time trying to conform to their nonsense.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  Okay; what problems would you expect to hit if you used a system where they were merged? (My best thought so far is having multiple hosts sharing a single /usr over NFS while having per-host root filesystems, but I've never actually seen that done. I've also thought about building a distro that kept its initramfs as root and just mounted everything else into it, but that's even further off the beaten path.)
  - nubinetwork 2y ago
    I can think of a few off the top of my head... - broken shell scripts that are hardcoded to "/bin/bash" rather than "/usr/bin/env bash" (this might work for a while, but what happens when they remove the symlink?) - broken compiles because "/lib" and "/lib64" no longer exist, because of the lack of testing prior to making the change on behalf of users - broken boots because initramfs (dracut/etc) isn't structured correctly after the change (see lack of testing). I'm sure there's more but I'm not their personal testing infrastructure. I just want an OS that works without having to fight someone every 3 weeks because "everyone else is doing it, so we should too".
    - comex 2y ago
      Are there actually plans to remove the symlink? My impression was that it’s intended to stay around pretty much forever.
      - nubinetwork 2y ago
        The wiki doesn't say, and the mailing list reader hasn't worked since March 2023. (Yes I know MARC exists, but their interface is terrible) I wouldn't be surprised if they remove the symlink in a year because they consider it useless cruft.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
      I would think your first couple points are actually better on a merged system - if /bin==/usr/bin and /lib==/lib64==/usr/lib then scripts can use either /bin/bash or /usr/bin/bash and it'll work (and ditto for libraries). Granted, removing those symlinks would then be painful, but I haven't heard of that being proposed; if it has been and I'm just out of the loop then yeah that'd make me nervous. (Though in fairness, scripts really should use `/usr/bin/env bash` for portability anyways - /bin/bash was never more than a distro-specific quirk.) As to testing... yeah obviously this stuff should be thoroughly tested long before it hits users, but I was rather under the impression that it was tested extensively before getting to users. Again, if you've seen actual problems that made it past testing, feel free to point them out since that would greatly strengthen your criticism. > I just want an OS that works without having to fight someone every 3 weeks because "everyone else is doing it, so we should too". Are you super committed to Linux OSs? Because you might find the one of the BSDs or illumos more comfortable. Not that they never change (er, well, illumos might not), but at least it's not because of what anyone else does. (And as an aside: Don't take this as an endorsement of merged usr; I actually prefer a separate /usr myself because I lean towards thinking that it's reasonable to have a read-only root and a rw /usr, or /usr on shared NFS, or any number of other "weird" systems... but I also culturally favor the BSDs, so take that as you will. I just think that if we're going to find fault, we should have the best evidence/arguments possible.)
  - setopt 2y ago
    > My best thought so far is having multiple hosts sharing a single /usr over NFS while having per-host root filesystems HPC systems already have better systems for this sort of thing, e.g. Lmod which is modular. I don’t think it’s a great idea to have /usr itself on NFS, given that things like /usr/bin/env is in most script shebangs and IMO should be stored locally. On some systems, many potential login shells are also stored in /usr/bin and not /bin.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
      Thanks, I don't recall seeing Lmod ( https://lmod.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html https://lmod.readthedocs.io/en/latest/index.html ) before, I'll have to look at it. Kinda reminds me of GNU stash. Though part of me agrees that there are reliability concerns to keep in mind, the other part of me still thinks root on NFS is normal, at which point /usr seems rather minor in comparison:) I suspect some of this is cultural or a result of what you're used to.

wannacboatmovie 2y ago

They might as well rename it C:/Linux/System32 while they're at it. The separate paths were originally done for reasons but since you can't install a mainstream distro with < 512MB RAM these days (not even Alpine) some of those reasons are moot. Linux is becoming less and less like UNIX every day.

initplus 2y ago
The original history behind a lot of original UNIX directory structure is engineers running out of disk space on a PDP-11 50 years ago and shuffling things around to keep the system operating. Other reasoning has been piled on top over the years.
- Athas 2y ago
  Yes, and undoing this means it's no longer UNIX as it will no longer run on that PDP-11! (Unless you can afford a bigger disk I guess.)
  - NekkoDroid 2y ago
    If "being UNIX" hinges on the fucking filesystem structure I honestly am fine with it "not being UNIX"
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      It does, however it is actually less strict than I had in mind, https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/
    - eru 2y ago
      I suspect you missed the sarcasm in Athas' comment?
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]

nhellman 2y ago

This is not forced by Gentoo. My Gentoo installs have separate bin directories which is what I got by default.