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hyperscript is a completely separate technology from htmx, it is designed to be an alternative to javascript and is very speculative htmx generalizes hypermedi

hyperscript is a completely separate technology from htmx, it is designed to be an alternative to javascript and is very speculative htmx generalizes hypermedia controls, that's pretty much it, and it can be used with any scripting tool you'd like: AlpineJS, hyperscript (if you are brave), vanilla js, etc.

troupo 2y ago
All the hx-* attributes constitute a separate DSL with its own semantics and it requires the server to conform to this DSL that also subsumes a bunch of existing HTTP semantics like redirects.  <div hx-get="/example" hx-swap="innerHTML show:#another-div:top"> Get Some Content </div>  <div hx-get="/clicked" hx-trigger="click[checkGlobalState()]">Control Click Me</div>  <div hx-get="/example" hx-trigger="keyup" hx-vals='js:{lastKey: event.key}'> <input type="text" /> </div>  <button hx-get="/info" hx-on::before-request="alert('Making a request!')"> Get Info! </button> <button hx-get="/info" hx-on="htmx:beforeRequest: alert('Making a request!') htmx:afterRequest: alert('Done making a request!')"> Get Info! </button> And so on.
- dartos 2y ago
  The point isn’t to erase the need for JavaScript entirely, but to make it possible to integrate and interact with a backend in a meaningful way using just mainly html.
  - troupo 2y ago
    That literally isn't what I talked about.
    - dartos 2y ago
      3 out of 4 of your examples mentioned using js or a js-like DSL. Explain your point better
      - troupo 2y ago
        It's enough to read the context of the discussion, don't you think? Original complaint: "it's describing a "whole other language" they call Hyperscript" Response: hyperscript is a completely separate technology. htmx generalizes hypermedia controls, that's pretty much it, and it can be used with any scripting tool you'd like My response: In reality [1] htmx defines its own non-optional DSL that you have to use. --- I will add that as with any organically grown nice-to-have utility DSLs it's quite haphazard (it's hyperscript-like in one place, js-like in another place, both in some other places etc.). But that's the nature of such ad-hoc informally specified DSLs [1] which can be easily verified by just visiting https://htmx.org https://htmx.org
        ungamedplayer 2y ago
        > In reality [1] htmx defines its own non-optional DSL that you have to use. --- I don't use hyperscript with my htmx, ergo it IS optional in objective reality. Citing a use with it does not prove it can't be used without it.
        troupo 2y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40746543 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40746543 Nothing in the htmx docs shows it's optional.
        dartos 2y ago
        It also doesn’t show, at any point, that it’s required. There’s no magic abstractions going on. Everything is regular html elements. You can just use the regular js api. Reading the docs and having an understanding of how frontend works would give you that information.
- recursivedoubts 2y ago
  i agree we are tentatively working on a proposal with the chrome team that takes the most important concepts of htmx and integrates them into HTML using more standard attributes. Alex Petros, a core htmx dev, gave a talk at Big Sky Dev Con on this idea here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inRB6ull5WQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inRB6ull5WQ this will obviously be a much longer and more difficult process, but hopefully it will give HTML enough oomph that htmx will often be unnecessary all of that doesn't change the fact that the code above is hyperscript, not htmx
  - PDSCodes 2y ago
    I would love for the authors to consider a book on Hyperscript. I initially dismissed wanting to add another scripting language to an app, but after some experimenting I have used it to replace 100s of lines of JS. Mainly for UI animations. It’s not for the faint of heart, but enjoyable to learn. I find the docs difficult to follow and would enjoy another hardback manual to sit next to this book, which is superb.
    - recursivedoubts 2y ago
      i'd love to write a book on hyperscript, but i should probably get it to 1.0 first :) maybe next summer
  - troupo 2y ago
    > all of that doesn't change the fact that the code above is hyperscript, not htmx --- start quote --- https://htmx.org/ https://htmx.org/ htmx gives you access to AJAX, CSS Transitions, WebSockets and Server Sent Events directly in HTML, using attributes: https://htmx.org/reference/#attributes https://htmx.org/reference/#attributes --- end quote --- All my examples come directly from htmx documentation
    - recursivedoubts 2y ago
      sorry! Got you crossed up w sapling-ginger above and thought I was talking w the same person. agree that htmx has a regular language core for config options but, as hyperscript indicates, I’m not afraid of even a recursive language when I think it’s useful. Hopefully we can get some of the ideas into HTML in a more standard form!

troupo 2y ago

All the hx-* attributes constitute a separate DSL with its own semantics and it requires the server to conform to this DSL that also subsumes a bunch of existing HTTP semantics like redirects.  <div hx-get="/example" hx-swap="innerHTML show:#another-div:top"> Get Some Content </div>  <div hx-get="/clicked" hx-trigger="click[checkGlobalState()]">Control Click Me</div>  <div hx-get="/example" hx-trigger="keyup" hx-vals='js:{lastKey: event.key}'> <input type="text" /> </div>  <button hx-get="/info" hx-on::before-request="alert('Making a request!')"> Get Info! </button> <button hx-get="/info" hx-on="htmx:beforeRequest: alert('Making a request!') htmx:afterRequest: alert('Done making a request!')"> Get Info! </button> And so on.

dartos 2y ago
The point isn’t to erase the need for JavaScript entirely, but to make it possible to integrate and interact with a backend in a meaningful way using just mainly html.
- troupo 2y ago
  That literally isn't what I talked about.
  - dartos 2y ago
    3 out of 4 of your examples mentioned using js or a js-like DSL. Explain your point better
    - troupo 2y ago
      It's enough to read the context of the discussion, don't you think? Original complaint: "it's describing a "whole other language" they call Hyperscript" Response: hyperscript is a completely separate technology. htmx generalizes hypermedia controls, that's pretty much it, and it can be used with any scripting tool you'd like My response: In reality [1] htmx defines its own non-optional DSL that you have to use. --- I will add that as with any organically grown nice-to-have utility DSLs it's quite haphazard (it's hyperscript-like in one place, js-like in another place, both in some other places etc.). But that's the nature of such ad-hoc informally specified DSLs [1] which can be easily verified by just visiting https://htmx.org https://htmx.org
      - ungamedplayer 2y ago
        > In reality [1] htmx defines its own non-optional DSL that you have to use. --- I don't use hyperscript with my htmx, ergo it IS optional in objective reality. Citing a use with it does not prove it can't be used without it.
        troupo 2y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40746543 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40746543 Nothing in the htmx docs shows it's optional.
        dartos 2y ago
        It also doesn’t show, at any point, that it’s required. There’s no magic abstractions going on. Everything is regular html elements. You can just use the regular js api. Reading the docs and having an understanding of how frontend works would give you that information.
recursivedoubts 2y ago
i agree we are tentatively working on a proposal with the chrome team that takes the most important concepts of htmx and integrates them into HTML using more standard attributes. Alex Petros, a core htmx dev, gave a talk at Big Sky Dev Con on this idea here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inRB6ull5WQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inRB6ull5WQ this will obviously be a much longer and more difficult process, but hopefully it will give HTML enough oomph that htmx will often be unnecessary all of that doesn't change the fact that the code above is hyperscript, not htmx
- PDSCodes 2y ago
  I would love for the authors to consider a book on Hyperscript. I initially dismissed wanting to add another scripting language to an app, but after some experimenting I have used it to replace 100s of lines of JS. Mainly for UI animations. It’s not for the faint of heart, but enjoyable to learn. I find the docs difficult to follow and would enjoy another hardback manual to sit next to this book, which is superb.
  - recursivedoubts 2y ago
    i'd love to write a book on hyperscript, but i should probably get it to 1.0 first :) maybe next summer
- troupo 2y ago
  > all of that doesn't change the fact that the code above is hyperscript, not htmx --- start quote --- https://htmx.org/ https://htmx.org/ htmx gives you access to AJAX, CSS Transitions, WebSockets and Server Sent Events directly in HTML, using attributes: https://htmx.org/reference/#attributes https://htmx.org/reference/#attributes --- end quote --- All my examples come directly from htmx documentation
  - recursivedoubts 2y ago
    sorry! Got you crossed up w sapling-ginger above and thought I was talking w the same person. agree that htmx has a regular language core for config options but, as hyperscript indicates, I’m not afraid of even a recursive language when I think it’s useful. Hopefully we can get some of the ideas into HTML in a more standard form!