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Many of the people pushing for these new rules are Christian Nationalists, and explicitly reject the separation of church and state. Some pastors are getting in

Many of the people pushing for these new rules are Christian Nationalists, and explicitly reject the separation of church and state. Some pastors are getting in trouble with their congregation if they try to remove an American flag from the podium, for example. It also fits in neatly with the Trump Bible that he released recently, which included a copy of the constitution, pretty explicitly rejecting the Christian belief of not adding or removing anything to the Word of God. But this hypocrisy has been a core part of American culture since its founding, check out the book Money Cult to trace the origins and see more about how church is essentially big business in many of these states. [1] The Money Cult: Capitalism, Christianity, and the Unmaking of the American Dream [2] https://www.threads.net/@revjsreeder/post/C8W9cR8O1sg/?xmt=AQGzQvoize-S0OmnuMFxwk8Vw1n4qNDYNxacLmS4y3DH8w https://www.threads.net/@revjsreeder/post/C8W9cR8O1sg/?xmt=A...

rayiner 2y ago
What is a “Christian nationalist?” How is it different from a Christian Democrat (a common political orientation in Europe)?
- saagarjha 2y ago
  Well, we’re talking about the US for one.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    The U.S. was founded by Christians and remains an overwhelming Christian majority country. So the question remains: what’s the functional difference between “Christian nationalism” (as it’s used here) and Christian democracy as is widespread in Europe? To use an example: Germany’s dominant party has long been the Christian Democratic Union. Its policies are motivated by Christian theology. Is that Christian nationalism?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - _fs 2y ago
      A Christian nationalist is a person who believes that the United States was founded as a Christian nation and should maintain a strong Christian identity in its laws, government, and culture. [1][2] Christian nationalists typically seek to promote Christian values and influence in the political sphere, often with the goal of shaping the country's laws and policies to align with their interpretation of Christian doctrine.[1][2] In contrast, a Christian Democrat is a political orientation common in Europe that emphasizes social justice, subsidiarity, and the role of the church in society, but does not necessarily seek to establish a Christian state or impose Christian doctrine through the government.[3] Christian Democrats generally believe in the separation of church and state and advocate for policies that support the common good and the dignity of the human person, rather than explicitly promoting a Christian nationalist agenda.[3] The key difference is that Christian nationalism is a political ideology focused on establishing a Christian identity for the nation, while Christian Democracy is more focused on applying Christian social teachings to the political realm without necessarily seeking to create a Christian state.[3] https://www.reddit.com/r/Reformed/comments/17u7r9r/what_are_the_key_differences_between_christian/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Reformed/comments/17u7r9r/what_are_... https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/february-web-only/what-is-christian-nationalism.html https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/february-web-only/... https://christoverall.com/article/longform/what-is-the-spectrum-of-major-views-on-political-theology-a-proposed-taxonomy-of-seven-views-on-religion-and-government/ https://christoverall.com/article/longform/what-is-the-spect...
      - rayiner 2y ago
        If you take out the circular cross-references in your definitions, they sound the same: > Christian nationalists typically seek to promote Christian values and influence in the political sphere, often with the goal of shaping the country's laws and policies to align with their interpretation of Christian doctrine > Christian Democracy is more focused on applying Christian social teachings to the political realm Christian doctrine is all about "the common good and the dignity of the human person." That encompasses both the stuff secular liberals like (such as "provide for the poor") and the stuff secular liberals hate (such as "human life has dignity at conception" or "sex is for procreation"). I think there is a clear line to be drawn when you talk about a "Christian state"--a state that restricts the right of religious minorities to freely practice their religion. That, I think could properly be called "Christian nationalism." But very few people want that.
- pseudalopex 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_nationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_nationalism
CodeWriter23 2y ago
[flagged]
LightHugger 2y ago
This is a bit of a tangent, but you mentioned removing an american flag from the podium in a church. This makes me think, we care about removing religion from government, but do we care about removing government from religion and places of worship? Protecting government from religious influence is an obvious win but does it matter if patriotism is in churches? I'm interested if anyone has any more formed thoughts to share on this, because my initial reaction is that separating church out of state is what's very necessary and desirable, but separating state out of church probably doesn't really matter, does it?
- carlob 2y ago
  It doesn't matter as long you don't (or are allowed not to) participate in church.
- codechicago277 2y ago
  On a legal basis I’m not sure, but on a theological basis many people find it very important to separate patriotism and allegiance to a particular government from theological beliefs, which is why many saw Trump’s Bible as heretical. It’s also worth pointing out that rejecting state influence over religion is the original reason for the concept of separation of church and state, at least in America. It was was far from the norm at the time. [1] https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/establishment-clause-separation-of-church-and-state/ https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/establishment-clause... [2] https://goodfaithmedia.org/heresy-of-the-trump-bible/ https://goodfaithmedia.org/heresy-of-the-trump-bible/
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  It's an ongoing conversation in the eastern orthodox church you might find something interesting there. Historically it was the state church of the byzantines, later (and still officially) greece and russia. There are liturgical gestures and phrasing that indicate an entanglement with the state that is not really true in most places today. There are factions that openly consider this the "ideal" form of the church and think we should return to it. Others think that was an embarrassing political necessity and are happy to be free of it. There was a lot of meddling in church affairs by the soviets that showed people the downsides. But the allure of power is still there I suppose. You also run into interesting stuff about like, what is the state from the church's point of view. In liturgy we pray for "the president, armed forces, and all civil authorities." So for example during the russo-japanese war, was a russian orthodox mission in japan praying for russia's enemies? The canonical answer is yes and this makes almost everyone uncomfortable one way or another.

rayiner 2y ago

What is a “Christian nationalist?” How is it different from a Christian Democrat (a common political orientation in Europe)?

saagarjha 2y ago
Well, we’re talking about the US for one.
- rayiner 2y ago
  The U.S. was founded by Christians and remains an overwhelming Christian majority country. So the question remains: what’s the functional difference between “Christian nationalism” (as it’s used here) and Christian democracy as is widespread in Europe? To use an example: Germany’s dominant party has long been the Christian Democratic Union. Its policies are motivated by Christian theology. Is that Christian nationalism?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - _fs 2y ago
    A Christian nationalist is a person who believes that the United States was founded as a Christian nation and should maintain a strong Christian identity in its laws, government, and culture. [1][2] Christian nationalists typically seek to promote Christian values and influence in the political sphere, often with the goal of shaping the country's laws and policies to align with their interpretation of Christian doctrine.[1][2] In contrast, a Christian Democrat is a political orientation common in Europe that emphasizes social justice, subsidiarity, and the role of the church in society, but does not necessarily seek to establish a Christian state or impose Christian doctrine through the government.[3] Christian Democrats generally believe in the separation of church and state and advocate for policies that support the common good and the dignity of the human person, rather than explicitly promoting a Christian nationalist agenda.[3] The key difference is that Christian nationalism is a political ideology focused on establishing a Christian identity for the nation, while Christian Democracy is more focused on applying Christian social teachings to the political realm without necessarily seeking to create a Christian state.[3] https://www.reddit.com/r/Reformed/comments/17u7r9r/what_are_the_key_differences_between_christian/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Reformed/comments/17u7r9r/what_are_... https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/february-web-only/what-is-christian-nationalism.html https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/february-web-only/... https://christoverall.com/article/longform/what-is-the-spectrum-of-major-views-on-political-theology-a-proposed-taxonomy-of-seven-views-on-religion-and-government/ https://christoverall.com/article/longform/what-is-the-spect...
    - rayiner 2y ago
      If you take out the circular cross-references in your definitions, they sound the same: > Christian nationalists typically seek to promote Christian values and influence in the political sphere, often with the goal of shaping the country's laws and policies to align with their interpretation of Christian doctrine > Christian Democracy is more focused on applying Christian social teachings to the political realm Christian doctrine is all about "the common good and the dignity of the human person." That encompasses both the stuff secular liberals like (such as "provide for the poor") and the stuff secular liberals hate (such as "human life has dignity at conception" or "sex is for procreation"). I think there is a clear line to be drawn when you talk about a "Christian state"--a state that restricts the right of religious minorities to freely practice their religion. That, I think could properly be called "Christian nationalism." But very few people want that.
pseudalopex 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_nationalism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_nationalism

CodeWriter23 2y ago

[flagged]

LightHugger 2y ago

This is a bit of a tangent, but you mentioned removing an american flag from the podium in a church. This makes me think, we care about removing religion from government, but do we care about removing government from religion and places of worship? Protecting government from religious influence is an obvious win but does it matter if patriotism is in churches? I'm interested if anyone has any more formed thoughts to share on this, because my initial reaction is that separating church out of state is what's very necessary and desirable, but separating state out of church probably doesn't really matter, does it?

carlob 2y ago
It doesn't matter as long you don't (or are allowed not to) participate in church.
codechicago277 2y ago
On a legal basis I’m not sure, but on a theological basis many people find it very important to separate patriotism and allegiance to a particular government from theological beliefs, which is why many saw Trump’s Bible as heretical. It’s also worth pointing out that rejecting state influence over religion is the original reason for the concept of separation of church and state, at least in America. It was was far from the norm at the time. [1] https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/establishment-clause-separation-of-church-and-state/ https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/establishment-clause... [2] https://goodfaithmedia.org/heresy-of-the-trump-bible/ https://goodfaithmedia.org/heresy-of-the-trump-bible/
giraffe_lady 2y ago
It's an ongoing conversation in the eastern orthodox church you might find something interesting there. Historically it was the state church of the byzantines, later (and still officially) greece and russia. There are liturgical gestures and phrasing that indicate an entanglement with the state that is not really true in most places today. There are factions that openly consider this the "ideal" form of the church and think we should return to it. Others think that was an embarrassing political necessity and are happy to be free of it. There was a lot of meddling in church affairs by the soviets that showed people the downsides. But the allure of power is still there I suppose. You also run into interesting stuff about like, what is the state from the church's point of view. In liturgy we pray for "the president, armed forces, and all civil authorities." So for example during the russo-japanese war, was a russian orthodox mission in japan praying for russia's enemies? The canonical answer is yes and this makes almost everyone uncomfortable one way or another.