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I disagree. I want my phone to Just Work. I don’t want people to publish software that uses unstable APIs because that means your software running on my phone i

I disagree. I want my phone to Just Work. I don’t want people to publish software that uses unstable APIs because that means your software running on my phone is going to break when I upgrade it. There are many dimensions to “freedom”, and in the case of my phone, I want freedom from janky software that breaks when the OS gets a minor upgrade. I want the freedom of a device that almost never fails. I want freedom from malicious software that puts its fingers down my throat and rips out my private data because some alpha quality API has bugs. In any case, you can and do have the freedom to use these private APIs on your phone, you can do it right from Xcode and install the software directly on your phone. The only freedom you don’t have is the freedom to publish that software as a product and risk making my phone break, or worse.

archagon 2y ago
Great, don't run janky software on your phone then. Exclusively use the App Store. Your preferences should not impinge on my freedoms. Also, if you happen to use a Mac, all that same private data from your phone lives there too. I haven't heard a good argument for why this one class of device should be open while the others are locked down, especially given the availability of secure enclaves across Apple devices. > You can and do have the freedom to use these private APIs, you can do it right from Xcode and install the software directly on your phone. If I pay $99 a year, have access to the code, renew my certificate every week, and stay in Apple's good graces. To me — and seemingly to the EU — this is simply not acceptable.
- doctor_eval 2y ago
  > Exclusively use the App Store. Your preferences should not impinge on my freedoms. I understood you to be arguing that the canonical App Store should allow use of private APIs. If your argument is simply that there should exist other ways to get apps on your phone, then we agree. I wouldn’t touch an alternative App Store with your ten foot pole, but go nuts. But you originally said, > If an operating system feature is accessible from user space, then it should also be documented, supported and legal to use. And it was this that I disagreed with. Apple has every right to test APIs without committing resources to documenting and supporting them. ETA: also, as far as I know, you don’t need to pay $99 to compile and build locally. I did just that the other day and it seemed to work just fine.
  - archagon 2y ago
    > If your argument is simply that there should exist other ways to get apps on your phone, then we agree. I wouldn’t touch an alternative App Store with your ten foot pole, but go nuts. Oops, I guess I should have read the rest of the thread more carefully. Yes, this is what I meant — sorry for the misunderstanding. Apple should be able to do whatever it wants in its own App Store, and I don't think that private APIs need to be documented or available to use without an entitlement. However, I don't think that I should be prevented from using those private APIs in apps outside the App Store.

archagon 2y ago

Great, don't run janky software on your phone then. Exclusively use the App Store. Your preferences should not impinge on my freedoms. Also, if you happen to use a Mac, all that same private data from your phone lives there too. I haven't heard a good argument for why this one class of device should be open while the others are locked down, especially given the availability of secure enclaves across Apple devices. > You can and do have the freedom to use these private APIs, you can do it right from Xcode and install the software directly on your phone. If I pay $99 a year, have access to the code, renew my certificate every week, and stay in Apple's good graces. To me — and seemingly to the EU — this is simply not acceptable.

doctor_eval 2y ago
> Exclusively use the App Store. Your preferences should not impinge on my freedoms. I understood you to be arguing that the canonical App Store should allow use of private APIs. If your argument is simply that there should exist other ways to get apps on your phone, then we agree. I wouldn’t touch an alternative App Store with your ten foot pole, but go nuts. But you originally said, > If an operating system feature is accessible from user space, then it should also be documented, supported and legal to use. And it was this that I disagreed with. Apple has every right to test APIs without committing resources to documenting and supporting them. ETA: also, as far as I know, you don’t need to pay $99 to compile and build locally. I did just that the other day and it seemed to work just fine.
- archagon 2y ago
  > If your argument is simply that there should exist other ways to get apps on your phone, then we agree. I wouldn’t touch an alternative App Store with your ten foot pole, but go nuts. Oops, I guess I should have read the rest of the thread more carefully. Yes, this is what I meant — sorry for the misunderstanding. Apple should be able to do whatever it wants in its own App Store, and I don't think that private APIs need to be documented or available to use without an entitlement. However, I don't think that I should be prevented from using those private APIs in apps outside the App Store.