4 ms·

F (2006)

145 points by hwayne 2y ago

pmarreck 2y ago
In the "simple and interesting language" front we also recently got a post about Forsp, a hybrid between a lisp and Forth: https://github.com/xorvoid/forsp https://github.com/xorvoid/forsp What is the simplest most interesting language?
encom 2y ago
This is the opposite of click bait.
Duanemclemore 2y ago
Stevan Apter is awesome, I love "No Stinking Loops." His episode of the ArrayCast is great. https://www.arraycast.com/episodes/episode26-stevan-apter https://www.arraycast.com/episodes/episode26-stevan-apter
dang 2y ago
Related. Others? F (2006) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24238846 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24238846 - Aug 2020 (56 comments) F – a pure functional concatenative language (2006) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10776314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10776314 - Dec 2015 (7 comments)
declan_roberts 2y ago
> All primitives are denoted by single symbols Take an axe to the troubleshoot-ability of your language with this one weird trick that makes it impossible to google.
- Koshkin 2y ago
  Google has no problem searching for X
- nine_k 2y ago
  Hello from APL! (And also Haskell, to a smaller extent.) I bet all these languages come from people with a thick CS theory background, and thus a tradition and a need to write formulae on a blackboard. Unlike a keyboard, a blackboard is a graphical device, it's slow to produce long character strings, but basically any one glyph takes about the same time to write, be it an x, ≡, ∉, ⊕, ℵ, etc. Then you want to plainly represent the same concepts in the computer language, et voilà.
  - pphysch 2y ago
    Yes, blackboard-simple is not the same as keyboard-simple. Unless the language is specifically for code-golfing, such design choices suggest the creators haven't thought very holistically about their product.
    - nine_k 2y ago
      They likely wanted something out, and wanted something to write a number of papers about. Unifying the computer language syntax and the familiar CS theory syntax may be a shrewd product decision, if, again, producing papers and obtaining doctorates is the goal, while industry acceptance is a distant secondary consideration.
    - g15jv2dp 2y ago
      Or... it's a conscious design choice that you happen to disagree with. Just because you can think of one disadvantage of the approach, doesn't mean that the creators are idiot who didn't think about what they were doing.
    - mlochbaum 2y ago
      (I think we got off the rails a bit: the linked article looks to be ASCII-only! But I feel the need to defend myself...) This is a bit of a change-up from the usual "write-only language" complaint! But it does have the benefit of accuracy: yes, if you know the language, the time savings in writing APL are smaller than the savings in reading it. Both are faster, once you've spent a week or two with the keyboard, since even the slow method of typing a prefix character followed by a letter is faster than typing out a keyword in another language. Array languages are rarely "product"s. While I do offer it to others for free, I make the language I want to use, and having nice-to-read symbols for a one-time tooling cost is a nice convenience for me. Don't call me thoughtless for having different tradeoffs than you!
- mlochbaum 2y ago
  I tried using search engines to find whether the fold function in Joy, a vastly better-known language, takes an initial element or not. Best I got, after some fiddling with search terms, was a Joy tutorial that did have an example of fold. Certainly much slower than using language documentation. Yes, this choice will prevent F from being the next Elixir or Kotlin, but it's hardly relevant to the usability of a niche language like this.
mrgoldenbrown 2y ago
Unrelated to F# (Microsoft's functional .net language) as far as I can tell.
ithkuil 2y ago
Also interesting: https://www.uiua.org/ https://www.uiua.org/ Concateniative APL-like (with Unicode symbols but with pragmatic input method)
mrkeen 2y ago
> In F, everything is a function from triples of (environment;stack;queue) to triples of (environment;stack;queue). I dabble with compiler-writing, and one of the techniques there is to program an abstract machine. It fills a nice niche - it's a bit more concrete than hacking together an interpreter over your AST, and a lot less concrete than writing out LLVM instructions. Some examples are Krivine machines and SECD machines (which stands for Stack, Environment, Control, Dump). They let you play around with ideas before you commit to a particular semantics of your language, for instance, whether you'll pass by value or reference, via the stack, or via the heap. But exposing (e;s;q) directly to the programmer is a fascinating idea! If I'm thinking about it right, it means a programmer could write code to take a parameter which was passed in via the stack, and decide "No I think this should be on the heap instead" and then update all pointers in the program accordingly.

F (2006)

145 points by hwayne 2y ago

In the "simple and interesting language" front we also recently got a post about Forsp, a hybrid between a lisp and Forth: https://github.com/xorvoid/forsp https://github.com/xorvoid/forsp What is the simplest most interesting language?

encom 2y ago

This is the opposite of click bait.

Duanemclemore 2y ago

Stevan Apter is awesome, I love "No Stinking Loops." His episode of the ArrayCast is great. https://www.arraycast.com/episodes/episode26-stevan-apter https://www.arraycast.com/episodes/episode26-stevan-apter

dang 2y ago

Related. Others? F (2006) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24238846 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24238846 - Aug 2020 (56 comments) F – a pure functional concatenative language (2006) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10776314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10776314 - Dec 2015 (7 comments)

declan_roberts 2y ago

> All primitives are denoted by single symbols Take an axe to the troubleshoot-ability of your language with this one weird trick that makes it impossible to google.

Koshkin 2y ago
Google has no problem searching for X
nine_k 2y ago
Hello from APL! (And also Haskell, to a smaller extent.) I bet all these languages come from people with a thick CS theory background, and thus a tradition and a need to write formulae on a blackboard. Unlike a keyboard, a blackboard is a graphical device, it's slow to produce long character strings, but basically any one glyph takes about the same time to write, be it an x, ≡, ∉, ⊕, ℵ, etc. Then you want to plainly represent the same concepts in the computer language, et voilà.
- pphysch 2y ago
  Yes, blackboard-simple is not the same as keyboard-simple. Unless the language is specifically for code-golfing, such design choices suggest the creators haven't thought very holistically about their product.
  - nine_k 2y ago
    They likely wanted something out, and wanted something to write a number of papers about. Unifying the computer language syntax and the familiar CS theory syntax may be a shrewd product decision, if, again, producing papers and obtaining doctorates is the goal, while industry acceptance is a distant secondary consideration.
  - g15jv2dp 2y ago
    Or... it's a conscious design choice that you happen to disagree with. Just because you can think of one disadvantage of the approach, doesn't mean that the creators are idiot who didn't think about what they were doing.
  - mlochbaum 2y ago
    (I think we got off the rails a bit: the linked article looks to be ASCII-only! But I feel the need to defend myself...) This is a bit of a change-up from the usual "write-only language" complaint! But it does have the benefit of accuracy: yes, if you know the language, the time savings in writing APL are smaller than the savings in reading it. Both are faster, once you've spent a week or two with the keyboard, since even the slow method of typing a prefix character followed by a letter is faster than typing out a keyword in another language. Array languages are rarely "product"s. While I do offer it to others for free, I make the language I want to use, and having nice-to-read symbols for a one-time tooling cost is a nice convenience for me. Don't call me thoughtless for having different tradeoffs than you!
mlochbaum 2y ago
I tried using search engines to find whether the fold function in Joy, a vastly better-known language, takes an initial element or not. Best I got, after some fiddling with search terms, was a Joy tutorial that did have an example of fold. Certainly much slower than using language documentation. Yes, this choice will prevent F from being the next Elixir or Kotlin, but it's hardly relevant to the usability of a niche language like this.

mrgoldenbrown 2y ago

Unrelated to F# (Microsoft's functional .net language) as far as I can tell.

ithkuil 2y ago

Also interesting: https://www.uiua.org/ https://www.uiua.org/ Concateniative APL-like (with Unicode symbols but with pragmatic input method)

mrkeen 2y ago

> In F, everything is a function from triples of (environment;stack;queue) to triples of (environment;stack;queue). I dabble with compiler-writing, and one of the techniques there is to program an abstract machine. It fills a nice niche - it's a bit more concrete than hacking together an interpreter over your AST, and a lot less concrete than writing out LLVM instructions. Some examples are Krivine machines and SECD machines (which stands for Stack, Environment, Control, Dump). They let you play around with ideas before you commit to a particular semantics of your language, for instance, whether you'll pass by value or reference, via the stack, or via the heap. But exposing (e;s;q) directly to the programmer is a fascinating idea! If I'm thinking about it right, it means a programmer could write code to take a parameter which was passed in via the stack, and decide "No I think this should be on the heap instead" and then update all pointers in the program accordingly.