4 ms·

Stonehenge Damaged by Protesters

16 points by lando2319 2y ago

jgrahamc 2y ago
The article says the opposite of this invented headline. EDIT: HN guidelines are to use the original title. It is: "Climate protesters arrested after painting Stonehenge monument orange". It does not claim damage was done and the article is vague on damage and so I think the HN headline is unjustified.
- glxxyz 2y ago
  It implies there's damage but it's a bit ambiguous: "English Heritage [...] said curators were investigating the damage" (investigating to see if there was damage or investigating to see how much damage?) "Wiltshire Police said the pair were arrested on suspicion of damaging one of the world’s most famous prehistoric monuments." (suspicion that it was them or suspicion that it was damaged?)
- muaytimbo 2y ago
  Not sure how you reached that conclusion: "English Heritage, which manages the UNESCO World Heritage Site, said it was “extremely upsetting” and said curators were investigating the damage."
  - throwup238 2y ago
    > According to Just Stop Oil’s website, the pigment was made of an “orange cornflour” that would wash away in the rain. I assume the biggest impact here is that archaeologists will have to exclude orange corn flour as background noise from any future analyses
    - cjensen 2y ago
      The assumption that it will wash away in the rain rather than find its way into cracks and pits in the rock is an awfully big bet to make vs permanent damage to history.
      - maronato 2y ago
        It survived 4500 years, it’ll survive a bit of cornflour
        Turing_Machine 2y ago
        Cool. So you'd be fine with me coming over and spray painting something of my choice on your house, assuming I assured you (with absolutely no supporting evidence) that it would go away over some unspecified period of time? I do not think so. Anyone who's been around small children knows that some food dyes do NOT disappear when washed, even with detergent.
      - crtasm 2y ago
        If this could "damage history" then we're way overdue putting the stones into a safe indoor storage facility.
- phaedryx 2y ago
  I'd go with "Climate Protesters Vandalize Stonehenge"
  - ortusdux 2y ago
    Vandalize is defined as "deliberately destroy or damage". I don't think a food grade powder that will wash away with the next rain counts, but I could imagine some municipalities disagree. Does sidewalk chalk count as vandalism?
    - Turing_Machine 2y ago
      > I don't think a food grade powder that will wash away with the next rain counts Your evidence for it "washing away with the next rain" would be? Ever see what a child can do with a glass of "cherry" Koolaid? A dye being labeled as "food grade" has essentially no correlation with its permanence. > Does sidewalk chalk count as vandalism? Sidewalks aren't 4,500 year old World Heritage Sites.
      - Turing_Machine 2y ago
        Hmm... still not seeing any evidence.
    - phaedryx 2y ago
      Our definitions of vandalism are different. I would count graffiti as vandalism. I would also count racial slurs written on private property using sidewalk chalk as vandalism.
- alwa 2y ago
  The article doesn’t say that there was no damage, the article quotes the vandals as claiming that their vandalism would “wash off in the rain.” Personally I don’t understand the political value they see in this type of disruption. The acts are theatrical but don’t seem connected to the protestors’ political desires: they grab attention but they don’t do anything with it. It feels like these performative disruptions deepen the impression that the climate movement is unserious, self-absorbed and antagonistic—I’m sure they calculate that it that contributes to their cause, I just don’t understand how.
  - a4000 2y ago
    I've seen a lot of conspiracy types speculate that Just Stop Oil is actually a creation of the Oil companies as a controlled opposition group to basically make the climate protesters look so bad that they lose public support. Personally, I haven't seen any compelling evidence of this, I think they really are just well meaning idiots who have no real idea or strategy of what they actually want to achieve or how to get there.
nashashmi 2y ago
Nothing to see here. Climate nutjobs artistically protesting at monuments (without damaging them) and risking their futures to raise awareness of an impending doom because they have lost hope there is a future for the planet that is selfishly worth investing in. Paint will come off in a couple of days. Some bits will remain as their mark on its history.
LordDragonfang 2y ago
> According to Just Stop Oil’s website, the pigment was made of an “orange cornflour” that would wash away in the rain. Sensationalist title. It also doesn't match the current title of the actual article: > Climate protesters arrested after painting Stonehenge monument orange
happytoexplain 2y ago
I was furious at the protesters until I read the article. Now I'm furious at the headline writer for scaring me (whether that's the HN submitter or possibly the NBC writer, if the HN title reflects an older version of the NBC title). I think this goes beyond sensationalism and into lying. It sounds like this will have no long-term effect, much less one that would count as "damage", but who knows. Regardless, obviously the word "damaged" is very inappropriate at this time. Edit: In case it's not obvious, none of this is a commentary on the protest itself.
- dfxm12 2y ago
  This was flagged earlier, presumably for the bad faith editorialization. It's unclear why it came back, let alone unedited.
- readthenotes1 2y ago
  "According to Just Stop Oil’s website, the pigment was made of an “orange cornflour” that would wash away in the rain. " Yeah, hopefully not requiring a power wash. Attention seeking idiocy, but at least I didn't stop ambulances from getting to the hospital
- hagbard_c 2y ago
  The did the same at the Brandenburg Tor [1] in Berlin for which the rabble was sent to prison. They claimed it was 'the fault of the cleaning company that the colour did not come out because they waited too long before trying to get it off' but that excuse did not fly with the judge. So no, it is not given that this colour 'will wash off with the first rain', that depends on the porosity of the stones. The Brandenburg Tor is made of sandstone which is very porous so that soaked up the colour like a sponge. I assume Stonehenge is made with granite blocks which are likely to be less porous but the outside layer of those megaliths are likely to be covered in lichen which is likely to soak up the 'wheatflour-based orange colour' they used. [1] https://apnews.com/article/germany-brandenburg-gate-climate-protest-cleaning-eb30718992d2c573ada9d91940e70ea2 https://apnews.com/article/germany-brandenburg-gate-climate-...
maronato 2y ago
This is the natural result of our media’s and society’s preference for flashy, sensationalist news. I’m certain these protestors have been doing peaceful protests for a while but have you ever heard of them before? Peaceful doesn’t get views. They took advantage of an upcoming event to raise awareness in a way that is ultimately harmless. Had they not done this I wouldn’t know about the labor party’s lackluster climate plans. Mission accomplished.
- crtasm 2y ago
  They've been making headlines + the television news with similar actions for a couple of years.
0xbadc0de5 2y ago
If there were ever a good argument for bringing back corporal punishment, surely Just Stop Oil is making it.
- happytoexplain 2y ago
  The fact that such hideousness can be provoked from ostensibly reasonable people is why we don't let victims sit on juries.
- crtasm 2y ago
  Nobody deserves to have violence inflicted upon them for temporarily colouring a rock.
  - 0xbadc0de5 2y ago
    I'm not saying it's the ideal solution, but it is a solution. What punishment would you suggest that would be equally or more effective? I think your minimisation of their crimes only serves to perpetuate the problem. Indeed, there is a school of thought supposing that something like a public lashing or caning - carefully administered - is actually a more humane and effective deterrent than throwing them in jail for 5 years. Singapore would be an extreme example - they have very strict laws covering petty crimes with the punishment often being corporal - but they also do not suffer from the petty crime epidemic that the west currently is.
    - crtasm 2y ago
      I find it very strange that you'd associate climate protestors with petty crime and suggest that their actions might be worthy of years in jail.
      - 0xbadc0de5 2y ago
        But they aren't protesting, they're vandalising one of the UK's most historic archaeological sites - and that's a crime. Previously, they've also vandalised historic and priceless works of art among other things. Their right to protest does not include vandalism and the destruction of property. I'd argue that it also does not include depriving others of their right to enjoy said monuments and artwork. I noticed you dodged the question of how to effectively stop to the vandalism, so I'll ask again.

16 points by lando2319 2y ago

The article says the opposite of this invented headline. EDIT: HN guidelines are to use the original title. It is: "Climate protesters arrested after painting Stonehenge monument orange". It does not claim damage was done and the article is vague on damage and so I think the HN headline is unjustified.

glxxyz 2y ago
It implies there's damage but it's a bit ambiguous: "English Heritage [...] said curators were investigating the damage" (investigating to see if there was damage or investigating to see how much damage?) "Wiltshire Police said the pair were arrested on suspicion of damaging one of the world’s most famous prehistoric monuments." (suspicion that it was them or suspicion that it was damaged?)
muaytimbo 2y ago
Not sure how you reached that conclusion: "English Heritage, which manages the UNESCO World Heritage Site, said it was “extremely upsetting” and said curators were investigating the damage."
- throwup238 2y ago
  > According to Just Stop Oil’s website, the pigment was made of an “orange cornflour” that would wash away in the rain. I assume the biggest impact here is that archaeologists will have to exclude orange corn flour as background noise from any future analyses
  - cjensen 2y ago
    The assumption that it will wash away in the rain rather than find its way into cracks and pits in the rock is an awfully big bet to make vs permanent damage to history.
    - maronato 2y ago
      It survived 4500 years, it’ll survive a bit of cornflour
      - Turing_Machine 2y ago
        Cool. So you'd be fine with me coming over and spray painting something of my choice on your house, assuming I assured you (with absolutely no supporting evidence) that it would go away over some unspecified period of time? I do not think so. Anyone who's been around small children knows that some food dyes do NOT disappear when washed, even with detergent.
    - crtasm 2y ago
      If this could "damage history" then we're way overdue putting the stones into a safe indoor storage facility.
phaedryx 2y ago
I'd go with "Climate Protesters Vandalize Stonehenge"
- ortusdux 2y ago
  Vandalize is defined as "deliberately destroy or damage". I don't think a food grade powder that will wash away with the next rain counts, but I could imagine some municipalities disagree. Does sidewalk chalk count as vandalism?
  - Turing_Machine 2y ago
    > I don't think a food grade powder that will wash away with the next rain counts Your evidence for it "washing away with the next rain" would be? Ever see what a child can do with a glass of "cherry" Koolaid? A dye being labeled as "food grade" has essentially no correlation with its permanence. > Does sidewalk chalk count as vandalism? Sidewalks aren't 4,500 year old World Heritage Sites.
    - Turing_Machine 2y ago
      Hmm... still not seeing any evidence.
  - phaedryx 2y ago
    Our definitions of vandalism are different. I would count graffiti as vandalism. I would also count racial slurs written on private property using sidewalk chalk as vandalism.
alwa 2y ago
The article doesn’t say that there was no damage, the article quotes the vandals as claiming that their vandalism would “wash off in the rain.” Personally I don’t understand the political value they see in this type of disruption. The acts are theatrical but don’t seem connected to the protestors’ political desires: they grab attention but they don’t do anything with it. It feels like these performative disruptions deepen the impression that the climate movement is unserious, self-absorbed and antagonistic—I’m sure they calculate that it that contributes to their cause, I just don’t understand how.
- a4000 2y ago
  I've seen a lot of conspiracy types speculate that Just Stop Oil is actually a creation of the Oil companies as a controlled opposition group to basically make the climate protesters look so bad that they lose public support. Personally, I haven't seen any compelling evidence of this, I think they really are just well meaning idiots who have no real idea or strategy of what they actually want to achieve or how to get there.

nashashmi 2y ago

Nothing to see here. Climate nutjobs artistically protesting at monuments (without damaging them) and risking their futures to raise awareness of an impending doom because they have lost hope there is a future for the planet that is selfishly worth investing in. Paint will come off in a couple of days. Some bits will remain as their mark on its history.

LordDragonfang 2y ago

> According to Just Stop Oil’s website, the pigment was made of an “orange cornflour” that would wash away in the rain. Sensationalist title. It also doesn't match the current title of the actual article: > Climate protesters arrested after painting Stonehenge monument orange

happytoexplain 2y ago

I was furious at the protesters until I read the article. Now I'm furious at the headline writer for scaring me (whether that's the HN submitter or possibly the NBC writer, if the HN title reflects an older version of the NBC title). I think this goes beyond sensationalism and into lying. It sounds like this will have no long-term effect, much less one that would count as "damage", but who knows. Regardless, obviously the word "damaged" is very inappropriate at this time. Edit: In case it's not obvious, none of this is a commentary on the protest itself.

dfxm12 2y ago
This was flagged earlier, presumably for the bad faith editorialization. It's unclear why it came back, let alone unedited.
readthenotes1 2y ago
"According to Just Stop Oil’s website, the pigment was made of an “orange cornflour” that would wash away in the rain. " Yeah, hopefully not requiring a power wash. Attention seeking idiocy, but at least I didn't stop ambulances from getting to the hospital
hagbard_c 2y ago
The did the same at the Brandenburg Tor [1] in Berlin for which the rabble was sent to prison. They claimed it was 'the fault of the cleaning company that the colour did not come out because they waited too long before trying to get it off' but that excuse did not fly with the judge. So no, it is not given that this colour 'will wash off with the first rain', that depends on the porosity of the stones. The Brandenburg Tor is made of sandstone which is very porous so that soaked up the colour like a sponge. I assume Stonehenge is made with granite blocks which are likely to be less porous but the outside layer of those megaliths are likely to be covered in lichen which is likely to soak up the 'wheatflour-based orange colour' they used. [1] https://apnews.com/article/germany-brandenburg-gate-climate-protest-cleaning-eb30718992d2c573ada9d91940e70ea2 https://apnews.com/article/germany-brandenburg-gate-climate-...

maronato 2y ago

This is the natural result of our media’s and society’s preference for flashy, sensationalist news. I’m certain these protestors have been doing peaceful protests for a while but have you ever heard of them before? Peaceful doesn’t get views. They took advantage of an upcoming event to raise awareness in a way that is ultimately harmless. Had they not done this I wouldn’t know about the labor party’s lackluster climate plans. Mission accomplished.

crtasm 2y ago
They've been making headlines + the television news with similar actions for a couple of years.

0xbadc0de5 2y ago

If there were ever a good argument for bringing back corporal punishment, surely Just Stop Oil is making it.

happytoexplain 2y ago
The fact that such hideousness can be provoked from ostensibly reasonable people is why we don't let victims sit on juries.
crtasm 2y ago
Nobody deserves to have violence inflicted upon them for temporarily colouring a rock.
- 0xbadc0de5 2y ago
  I'm not saying it's the ideal solution, but it is a solution. What punishment would you suggest that would be equally or more effective? I think your minimisation of their crimes only serves to perpetuate the problem. Indeed, there is a school of thought supposing that something like a public lashing or caning - carefully administered - is actually a more humane and effective deterrent than throwing them in jail for 5 years. Singapore would be an extreme example - they have very strict laws covering petty crimes with the punishment often being corporal - but they also do not suffer from the petty crime epidemic that the west currently is.
  - crtasm 2y ago
    I find it very strange that you'd associate climate protestors with petty crime and suggest that their actions might be worthy of years in jail.
    - 0xbadc0de5 2y ago
      But they aren't protesting, they're vandalising one of the UK's most historic archaeological sites - and that's a crime. Previously, they've also vandalised historic and priceless works of art among other things. Their right to protest does not include vandalism and the destruction of property. I'd argue that it also does not include depriving others of their right to enjoy said monuments and artwork. I noticed you dodged the question of how to effectively stop to the vandalism, so I'll ask again.