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I just don’t agree with this for a moment. And ironically the topic was covered in Gruber’s WWDC talk. What you’re proposing is exactly the same as saying that

I just don’t agree with this for a moment. And ironically the topic was covered in Gruber’s WWDC talk. What you’re proposing is exactly the same as saying that Apple is not allowed to privately test their APIs and frameworks in their own software before they let others use them. Of course they should be able to do that. Of course they do not have an obligation to open everything to everyone at all times. This is not like the bad old days where Microsoft used private APIs to disadvantage third party software in an operating system that literally had 95% world wide market share. I don’t know what share iOS has, but it’s a tiny fraction of the installed base of all operating systems.

ginko 2y ago
>This is not like the bad old days where Microsoft used private APIs to disadvantage third party software in an operating system that literally had 95% world wide market share. This is much worse than the bad old days. If an app is in a business Apple doesn't like or uses technology Apple doesn't approve of they just ban them outright.
- doctor_eval 2y ago
  It’s not worse at all, that’s ridiculous. Most devices now run Linux. The world of software is far more open than it was in the 1990s. That doesn’t mean every device needs to be open.
  - ginko 2y ago
    >That doesn’t mean every device needs to be open. That's your opinion.
archagon 2y ago
It’s my device. I should have the right to invoke any API, public or private, just as Apple has the right to change the private APIs out from under me. Same as on the Mac.
- doctor_eval 2y ago
  I disagree. I want my phone to Just Work. I don’t want people to publish software that uses unstable APIs because that means your software running on my phone is going to break when I upgrade it. There are many dimensions to “freedom”, and in the case of my phone, I want freedom from janky software that breaks when the OS gets a minor upgrade. I want the freedom of a device that almost never fails. I want freedom from malicious software that puts its fingers down my throat and rips out my private data because some alpha quality API has bugs. In any case, you can and do have the freedom to use these private APIs on your phone, you can do it right from Xcode and install the software directly on your phone. The only freedom you don’t have is the freedom to publish that software as a product and risk making my phone break, or worse.
  - archagon 2y ago
    Great, don't run janky software on your phone then. Exclusively use the App Store. Your preferences should not impinge on my freedoms. Also, if you happen to use a Mac, all that same private data from your phone lives there too. I haven't heard a good argument for why this one class of device should be open while the others are locked down, especially given the availability of secure enclaves across Apple devices. > You can and do have the freedom to use these private APIs, you can do it right from Xcode and install the software directly on your phone. If I pay $99 a year, have access to the code, renew my certificate every week, and stay in Apple's good graces. To me — and seemingly to the EU — this is simply not acceptable.
    - doctor_eval 2y ago
      > Exclusively use the App Store. Your preferences should not impinge on my freedoms. I understood you to be arguing that the canonical App Store should allow use of private APIs. If your argument is simply that there should exist other ways to get apps on your phone, then we agree. I wouldn’t touch an alternative App Store with your ten foot pole, but go nuts. But you originally said, > If an operating system feature is accessible from user space, then it should also be documented, supported and legal to use. And it was this that I disagreed with. Apple has every right to test APIs without committing resources to documenting and supporting them. ETA: also, as far as I know, you don’t need to pay $99 to compile and build locally. I did just that the other day and it seemed to work just fine.

ginko 2y ago

>This is not like the bad old days where Microsoft used private APIs to disadvantage third party software in an operating system that literally had 95% world wide market share. This is much worse than the bad old days. If an app is in a business Apple doesn't like or uses technology Apple doesn't approve of they just ban them outright.

doctor_eval 2y ago
It’s not worse at all, that’s ridiculous. Most devices now run Linux. The world of software is far more open than it was in the 1990s. That doesn’t mean every device needs to be open.
- ginko 2y ago
  >That doesn’t mean every device needs to be open. That's your opinion.

archagon 2y ago

It’s my device. I should have the right to invoke any API, public or private, just as Apple has the right to change the private APIs out from under me. Same as on the Mac.

doctor_eval 2y ago
I disagree. I want my phone to Just Work. I don’t want people to publish software that uses unstable APIs because that means your software running on my phone is going to break when I upgrade it. There are many dimensions to “freedom”, and in the case of my phone, I want freedom from janky software that breaks when the OS gets a minor upgrade. I want the freedom of a device that almost never fails. I want freedom from malicious software that puts its fingers down my throat and rips out my private data because some alpha quality API has bugs. In any case, you can and do have the freedom to use these private APIs on your phone, you can do it right from Xcode and install the software directly on your phone. The only freedom you don’t have is the freedom to publish that software as a product and risk making my phone break, or worse.
- archagon 2y ago
  Great, don't run janky software on your phone then. Exclusively use the App Store. Your preferences should not impinge on my freedoms. Also, if you happen to use a Mac, all that same private data from your phone lives there too. I haven't heard a good argument for why this one class of device should be open while the others are locked down, especially given the availability of secure enclaves across Apple devices. > You can and do have the freedom to use these private APIs, you can do it right from Xcode and install the software directly on your phone. If I pay $99 a year, have access to the code, renew my certificate every week, and stay in Apple's good graces. To me — and seemingly to the EU — this is simply not acceptable.
  - doctor_eval 2y ago
    > Exclusively use the App Store. Your preferences should not impinge on my freedoms. I understood you to be arguing that the canonical App Store should allow use of private APIs. If your argument is simply that there should exist other ways to get apps on your phone, then we agree. I wouldn’t touch an alternative App Store with your ten foot pole, but go nuts. But you originally said, > If an operating system feature is accessible from user space, then it should also be documented, supported and legal to use. And it was this that I disagreed with. Apple has every right to test APIs without committing resources to documenting and supporting them. ETA: also, as far as I know, you don’t need to pay $99 to compile and build locally. I did just that the other day and it seemed to work just fine.