5 ms·

I’ve also noticed this with vinnyvichy and 082349872349872 (who mostly seem to respond to each other). Probably it should be reported to dang if it hasn’t been

by bradrn 2y ago

I’ve also noticed this with vinnyvichy and 082349872349872 (who mostly seem to respond to each other). Probably it should be reported to dang if it hasn’t been already. (The first time I saw it, I wondered if I was going insane, because the conversations seemed unrelated to the topic and nonsensical in themselves… good to know there’s nothing I’m missing!)

082349872349872 2y ago
It's a bit like an abacus: the motion of beads on each individual rod may not seem to make much sense, but there is a meaning to the calculation taken as a whole. (Hmm: presentation does a great deal for providing meaning; imagine a "write-only" tetris game where instead of presenting the current state of the playfield, completed rows stayed on the display and dropped pieces stretched through them to incomplete rows. I think that'd be much more difficult than the traditional view) Lagniappe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40714981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40714981 (Sorry for interrupting your regular HN? Maybe we ought to bump up the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_(CDMA)#:~:text=The%20chip%20rate%20of%20a,is%20transmitted%20(or%20received) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_(CDMA)#:~:text=The%20chip.... rate and attempt to dive beneath the noise floor again?)
- vinnyvichy 2y ago
  So your bufferbloat curve comment refers to how congestion doesn't depend linearly on symbol rate, e.g https://superuser.com/questions/1324956/is-bufferbloat-triggered-on-a-certain-speed https://superuser.com/questions/1324956/is-bufferbloat-trigg...? Or is there more to it (like hidden Shannon assumptions not priced in with the chiprate e.g https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30130091 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30130091 https://phys.org/news/2024-06-cooperation-evolve-limited-payoff-memory.html https://phys.org/news/2024-06-cooperation-evolve-limited-pay... ) Chemical clocks can get a bit crazier-- there can be much randomness, but the number of equivalent ahem pathways can be few. https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2015/cp/c5cp02572a https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2015/cp/c5cp0...
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    "Tit for Tat" only requires storing one bit, for the last interaction. (its robust-to-noise variant, "Tit for Two Tats" still only requires constant memory) (I think I've talked about bufferbloat on HN before, but my Algolia-fu is lacking today) In this particular parent, I'm not referring to bufferbloat, but rather the mechanism "chipping", by which spread-spectrum communication can hide near, or even below, what more traditional signal processing might consider the "noise floor". Jiang Ziya gets a good start on the idea in §25: "Secret Letters" of the "Dragon Way" (httphttps://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/六韜#陰書第二十五 https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/六韜#陰書第二十五) in which he suggests sending sensitive messages by sending 1/3 of their characters each over three different channels. The birds (鸟语) use frequency sweeps (chirps) to provide noise protection: most noises either occur across nearly all frequencies but are localised in time (a "pop") or occur across long stretches of time but are localised in frequency (a "hum"); by changing frequency with time one minimises interferences with either of those noise sources. Finally, frequency-hopping proper involves sending multiple chips for each bit, on a nearly uncorrelated (prng-drived) schedule of frequencies. (because we have sign as well as frequency, even on a single frequency swapping between sign conventions allows one to extract signal from substantial amounts of noise. A Dicke switch would be the scientific method in microcosm, hopping relatively quickly between signal and control) EDIT: Mao Basic Tactics (1937) mentions multiple redundant messaging, but only as a repetition code, not even as fancy as Jiang's scheme. [Mao evidently had the problem of composing fighting forces capable of independent action with peasants who could read fewer than 20 characters! Yikes! (I mean, not that I'm much better, but I'd guess by analogy with kanji I probably have 20 hanzi already just in passing?)] vinnyvichy, any chance your baidu-fu would be enough better than mine to find either that or On Guerrilla Warfare (1937) in the original hanzi?
    - vinnyvichy 2y ago
      https://www.marxists.org/chinese/maozedong/marxist.org-chinese-mao-193805.htm https://www.marxists.org/chinese/maozedong/marxist.org-chine... (1938-05) "由此，游击战争的指挥原则，一方面反对绝对的集中主义，同时又反对绝对的分散主义，应该是战略的集中指挥和战役战斗的分散指挥。" Glad to be able to be meatgpt for now
mistermann 2y ago
> good to know there’s nothing I’m missing Hmmmm.

by bradrn 2y ago

082349872349872 2y ago

It's a bit like an abacus: the motion of beads on each individual rod may not seem to make much sense, but there is a meaning to the calculation taken as a whole. (Hmm: presentation does a great deal for providing meaning; imagine a "write-only" tetris game where instead of presenting the current state of the playfield, completed rows stayed on the display and dropped pieces stretched through them to incomplete rows. I think that'd be much more difficult than the traditional view) Lagniappe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40714981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40714981 (Sorry for interrupting your regular HN? Maybe we ought to bump up the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_(CDMA)#:~:text=The%20chip%20rate%20of%20a,is%20transmitted%20(or%20received) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_(CDMA)#:~:text=The%20chip.... rate and attempt to dive beneath the noise floor again?)

vinnyvichy 2y ago
So your bufferbloat curve comment refers to how congestion doesn't depend linearly on symbol rate, e.g https://superuser.com/questions/1324956/is-bufferbloat-triggered-on-a-certain-speed https://superuser.com/questions/1324956/is-bufferbloat-trigg...? Or is there more to it (like hidden Shannon assumptions not priced in with the chiprate e.g https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30130091 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30130091 https://phys.org/news/2024-06-cooperation-evolve-limited-payoff-memory.html https://phys.org/news/2024-06-cooperation-evolve-limited-pay... ) Chemical clocks can get a bit crazier-- there can be much randomness, but the number of equivalent ahem pathways can be few. https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2015/cp/c5cp02572a https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2015/cp/c5cp0...
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  "Tit for Tat" only requires storing one bit, for the last interaction. (its robust-to-noise variant, "Tit for Two Tats" still only requires constant memory) (I think I've talked about bufferbloat on HN before, but my Algolia-fu is lacking today) In this particular parent, I'm not referring to bufferbloat, but rather the mechanism "chipping", by which spread-spectrum communication can hide near, or even below, what more traditional signal processing might consider the "noise floor". Jiang Ziya gets a good start on the idea in §25: "Secret Letters" of the "Dragon Way" (httphttps://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/六韜#陰書第二十五 https://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/六韜#陰書第二十五) in which he suggests sending sensitive messages by sending 1/3 of their characters each over three different channels. The birds (鸟语) use frequency sweeps (chirps) to provide noise protection: most noises either occur across nearly all frequencies but are localised in time (a "pop") or occur across long stretches of time but are localised in frequency (a "hum"); by changing frequency with time one minimises interferences with either of those noise sources. Finally, frequency-hopping proper involves sending multiple chips for each bit, on a nearly uncorrelated (prng-drived) schedule of frequencies. (because we have sign as well as frequency, even on a single frequency swapping between sign conventions allows one to extract signal from substantial amounts of noise. A Dicke switch would be the scientific method in microcosm, hopping relatively quickly between signal and control) EDIT: Mao Basic Tactics (1937) mentions multiple redundant messaging, but only as a repetition code, not even as fancy as Jiang's scheme. [Mao evidently had the problem of composing fighting forces capable of independent action with peasants who could read fewer than 20 characters! Yikes! (I mean, not that I'm much better, but I'd guess by analogy with kanji I probably have 20 hanzi already just in passing?)] vinnyvichy, any chance your baidu-fu would be enough better than mine to find either that or On Guerrilla Warfare (1937) in the original hanzi?
  - vinnyvichy 2y ago
    https://www.marxists.org/chinese/maozedong/marxist.org-chinese-mao-193805.htm https://www.marxists.org/chinese/maozedong/marxist.org-chine... (1938-05) "由此，游击战争的指挥原则，一方面反对绝对的集中主义，同时又反对绝对的分散主义，应该是战略的集中指挥和战役战斗的分散指挥。" Glad to be able to be meatgpt for now

mistermann 2y ago

> good to know there’s nothing I’m missing Hmmmm.