4 ms·

There's absolutely nothing socialist about the EU, unless you don't know or understand what "socialism" means...

by piva00 2y ago

faku312 2y ago
[flagged]
- megous 2y ago
  So where's the "social ownership of the means of production"?
- piva00 2y ago
  Socialism is not social democracy. Socialism is a economical system where workers own the means of production instead of capital owners. You do not know the meaning of political terms and are using your own preconceived notions of what they mean to then call a very capitalistic institution (as the EU is) something it's not. Educate yourself, it will do wonders for you and everyone you interact with.
- zemnl 2y ago
  Since we are on a technical/scientific site I'll put it in mathematical terms: implementing social policies is a Necessary But Not Sufficient condition for a Country to be socialist. There are literally zero countries in the EU that are socialist, they only have ~some~ social policies.
ai_what 2y ago
[flagged]
- tomalbrc 2y ago
  Sorry, what? No one ever says “Socialism can work” when “something good happens”. You are American aren’t you
  - ai_what 2y ago
    So you also believe the "socialist parties" aren't actually socialist?
    - peoplefromibiza 2y ago
      > So you also believe the "socialist parties" aren't actually socialist? Yep! 90% of the members of PSOE are not actually socialists, they only bear the name of it. Take for example the Democratic Party in Italy (PD), it's member of the PSOE, but it has became mainly "a Catholic-inspired, centrist, catch-all party" [1] with sprinkles of liberal individual rights (mostly LGBTQ stuff). Liberals are not socialists. [1] quoting Wikipedia here on the definition of the Christian Democracy party in Italy (DC) that ruled consecutively for over 40 years since the end of WWII whose leftist component merged into PD together with the rightmost component of the former PCI (communist party). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Democracy_(Italy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Democracy_(Italy))
    - sofixa 2y ago
      In the same way that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea isn't Democratic nor People's nor a Republic, yes. Check their programmes. > Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems[1] characterised by social ownership of the means of production,[2] as opposed to private ownership.[3][4][5] It describes the economic, political, and social theories and movements associated with the implementation of such systems.[6] Social ownership can take various forms, including public, community, collective, cooperative,[7][8][9] or employee.[10][11] Traditionally, socialism is on the left wing of the political spectrum.[12] Types of socialism vary based on the role of markets and planning in resource allocation, and the structure of management in organizations.[13][14] Go and find any even remotely mainstream "Socialist" party advocating for anything close to the above. They are unquestionably left leaning, but that means more social policies (for the people, like increasing minimum wage, expanding workers' protections, investing in youth, etc.), not seizing the means of production in any way. Hell, the last seizing of some of the means of production in France happened under the neoliberal, "neither left nor right" (but in reality centre-right) current president, Macron - STX France (currently and formerly Chantiers de l'Atlantique, one of the biggest shipyards in Europe) and EDF (national electricity provider and producer, and owner of all nuclear power plants in France). Under his predecessor, the socialist Francois Hollande, from the Socialist party, there was only a 12% investment in PSA Group (Peugeot-Citroen, which has since then bought Opel and merged with Fiat-Chrysler to become Stellantis).
- mort96 2y ago
  I have never ever before in my whole life seen anyone, either online or offline, under any circumstance, seen someone point to something good the EU did and claim it as an example of socialism working. It's simply not socialist.
  - ai_what 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - mort96 2y ago
      "Socialized healthcare" is not "socialist healthcare", in fact a fundamentally capitalist society would benefit from socialized healthcare simply because the state subsidizing the health of workers benefits the owning class...
    - iknowstuff 2y ago
      The EU doesn’t own a healthcare system. Member states do and they all work differently. Get educated.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      Healthcare is a matter for individual countries in Europe and its organisation varies a lot. For instance, in the UK the NHS is indeed in essence a socialist construct. But in France GPs are all private practices and the system is essentially a mandatory insurance.
    - pelorat 2y ago
      Every nation in the EU has their own healthcare system. I live in the Netherlands. I pay more than 150 euros per month out of my own pocket for health insurance (it's mandatory to have one and they are in this price range), and even though I pay that much per month, I still have to pay the first 385 euros out of my own pocket if I go to the doctor for anything. I fucking wish that healthcare was socialized. And do you know what I get for this price. Access to a private GP that will at most give you some ibuprofen before they send you home.
    - 2y ago
- ben_w 2y ago
  I think it's more the Nordic countries which are seen as socialist; the EU as an institution is the kind of light-touch, states are sovereign, "fundamental rights and trade only" focus that Republicans seem to wish the USA federal government was.
  - preisschild 2y ago
    Nordic countries are very capitalistic, but they spend a lot on public infrastructure.
  - piva00 2y ago
    Nordic countries are absurdly capitalistic nations, Sweden has one of the biggest wealth inequalities in the world (not income, wealth, the true measure of capital). Sweden also has one of the freest markets on Earth, even more than the USA.
- zemnl 2y ago
  Having implemented social policies doesn't make the EU States socialists... You should do some reading and learn the differences
  - ai_what 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - zemnl 2y ago
      I am perfectly aware of the existence of socialist parties in Europe... Let me get this straight: are you really saying that because there are socialist parties in Europe, the European states are socialists? Most of the EU states are currently led by liberal/neo-liberal/right-wing parties dude...
    - iknowstuff 2y ago
      So fucking disingenuous. The EU Parliament is majority conservative, and you definitely stumbled upon that fact when traversing wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament
- palata 2y ago
  An issue is that what US people mean when they say "socialism" is not what EU people understand at all. US people typically don't see the difference between communism and socialism. From an EU point of view, US people see everything that is not right or far right as "the bad guys in Marvel comics".
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    What is the difference between socialism and communism, then? If you listen to Leninists, 'communism' is the ultimate form of 'socialism' but really that was created because Russia's industry was judged too undeveloped to achieve what Marx described. But there is no meaningful systemic difference. I think "EU people" know that very well, including from experience. What's happened is that most "socialist" parties have shifted and now really only seek to implement socialist-inspired ideas with a capitalist society, whereas communist parties still seek actual socialism.
    - palata 2y ago
      > What is the difference between socialism and communism It's a bit like the difference between "liberal" and "libertarian". It is a gradient. Socialism is a more global term that includes communism. Communism wants to remove social classes and the notion of state. But there are ways of being socialist in a democratic state. It is a gradient, you can be more or less extreme. Communism is a pretty extreme notion of socialism. Some EU countries are more "social", i.e. the socialist parties are strong and society is organized in a much, much social way than the US. But US people have this tendency to think that either you are libertarian, or you are communist.
      - mytailorisrich 2y ago
        As said, most socialist parties in Europe are no longer socialist... There is no gradient. Either you want private ownership or you want socialised ownership. I think you are not quite clear about what "socialism" means because there are so many "socialist" parties in Europe that have not actually been socialist for 70+ years... For instance in France, with people from the socialist party always referred to as "les socialistes"... Well, Miterrand and, say, Strauss-Khan, and even Macron (former banker...) who was finance minister in a "socialist government" are obviously as socialist as Barak Obama. The historic French socialist party, the SFIO, founded in 1905 was really socialist and split following the Russian revolution, whose supporters created the communist party (and they were actually the majority of the SFIO's members). They stayed socialist while the "socialist party" shifted over time to effectively social democracy. I think that this is because of the realisation that socialism requires authoritarism and does not work anyway, while pushing for more social measures within capitalism and a market economy can work.

There's absolutely nothing socialist about the EU, unless you don't know or understand what "socialism" means...

by piva00 2y ago

There's absolutely nothing socialist about the EU, unless you don't know or understand what "socialism" means...

faku312 2y ago

[flagged]

megous 2y ago
So where's the "social ownership of the means of production"?
piva00 2y ago
Socialism is not social democracy. Socialism is a economical system where workers own the means of production instead of capital owners. You do not know the meaning of political terms and are using your own preconceived notions of what they mean to then call a very capitalistic institution (as the EU is) something it's not. Educate yourself, it will do wonders for you and everyone you interact with.
zemnl 2y ago
Since we are on a technical/scientific site I'll put it in mathematical terms: implementing social policies is a Necessary But Not Sufficient condition for a Country to be socialist. There are literally zero countries in the EU that are socialist, they only have ~some~ social policies.

ai_what 2y ago

[flagged]

tomalbrc 2y ago
Sorry, what? No one ever says “Socialism can work” when “something good happens”. You are American aren’t you
- ai_what 2y ago
  So you also believe the "socialist parties" aren't actually socialist?
  - peoplefromibiza 2y ago
    > So you also believe the "socialist parties" aren't actually socialist? Yep! 90% of the members of PSOE are not actually socialists, they only bear the name of it. Take for example the Democratic Party in Italy (PD), it's member of the PSOE, but it has became mainly "a Catholic-inspired, centrist, catch-all party" [1] with sprinkles of liberal individual rights (mostly LGBTQ stuff). Liberals are not socialists. [1] quoting Wikipedia here on the definition of the Christian Democracy party in Italy (DC) that ruled consecutively for over 40 years since the end of WWII whose leftist component merged into PD together with the rightmost component of the former PCI (communist party). (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Democracy_(Italy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Democracy_(Italy))
  - sofixa 2y ago
    In the same way that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea isn't Democratic nor People's nor a Republic, yes. Check their programmes. > Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems[1] characterised by social ownership of the means of production,[2] as opposed to private ownership.[3][4][5] It describes the economic, political, and social theories and movements associated with the implementation of such systems.[6] Social ownership can take various forms, including public, community, collective, cooperative,[7][8][9] or employee.[10][11] Traditionally, socialism is on the left wing of the political spectrum.[12] Types of socialism vary based on the role of markets and planning in resource allocation, and the structure of management in organizations.[13][14] Go and find any even remotely mainstream "Socialist" party advocating for anything close to the above. They are unquestionably left leaning, but that means more social policies (for the people, like increasing minimum wage, expanding workers' protections, investing in youth, etc.), not seizing the means of production in any way. Hell, the last seizing of some of the means of production in France happened under the neoliberal, "neither left nor right" (but in reality centre-right) current president, Macron - STX France (currently and formerly Chantiers de l'Atlantique, one of the biggest shipyards in Europe) and EDF (national electricity provider and producer, and owner of all nuclear power plants in France). Under his predecessor, the socialist Francois Hollande, from the Socialist party, there was only a 12% investment in PSA Group (Peugeot-Citroen, which has since then bought Opel and merged with Fiat-Chrysler to become Stellantis).
mort96 2y ago
I have never ever before in my whole life seen anyone, either online or offline, under any circumstance, seen someone point to something good the EU did and claim it as an example of socialism working. It's simply not socialist.
- ai_what 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - mort96 2y ago
    "Socialized healthcare" is not "socialist healthcare", in fact a fundamentally capitalist society would benefit from socialized healthcare simply because the state subsidizing the health of workers benefits the owning class...
  - iknowstuff 2y ago
    The EU doesn’t own a healthcare system. Member states do and they all work differently. Get educated.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    Healthcare is a matter for individual countries in Europe and its organisation varies a lot. For instance, in the UK the NHS is indeed in essence a socialist construct. But in France GPs are all private practices and the system is essentially a mandatory insurance.
  - pelorat 2y ago
    Every nation in the EU has their own healthcare system. I live in the Netherlands. I pay more than 150 euros per month out of my own pocket for health insurance (it's mandatory to have one and they are in this price range), and even though I pay that much per month, I still have to pay the first 385 euros out of my own pocket if I go to the doctor for anything. I fucking wish that healthcare was socialized. And do you know what I get for this price. Access to a private GP that will at most give you some ibuprofen before they send you home.
  - 2y ago
ben_w 2y ago
I think it's more the Nordic countries which are seen as socialist; the EU as an institution is the kind of light-touch, states are sovereign, "fundamental rights and trade only" focus that Republicans seem to wish the USA federal government was.
- preisschild 2y ago
  Nordic countries are very capitalistic, but they spend a lot on public infrastructure.
- piva00 2y ago
  Nordic countries are absurdly capitalistic nations, Sweden has one of the biggest wealth inequalities in the world (not income, wealth, the true measure of capital). Sweden also has one of the freest markets on Earth, even more than the USA.
zemnl 2y ago
Having implemented social policies doesn't make the EU States socialists... You should do some reading and learn the differences
- ai_what 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - zemnl 2y ago
    I am perfectly aware of the existence of socialist parties in Europe... Let me get this straight: are you really saying that because there are socialist parties in Europe, the European states are socialists? Most of the EU states are currently led by liberal/neo-liberal/right-wing parties dude...
  - iknowstuff 2y ago
    So fucking disingenuous. The EU Parliament is majority conservative, and you definitely stumbled upon that fact when traversing wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament
palata 2y ago
An issue is that what US people mean when they say "socialism" is not what EU people understand at all. US people typically don't see the difference between communism and socialism. From an EU point of view, US people see everything that is not right or far right as "the bad guys in Marvel comics".
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  What is the difference between socialism and communism, then? If you listen to Leninists, 'communism' is the ultimate form of 'socialism' but really that was created because Russia's industry was judged too undeveloped to achieve what Marx described. But there is no meaningful systemic difference. I think "EU people" know that very well, including from experience. What's happened is that most "socialist" parties have shifted and now really only seek to implement socialist-inspired ideas with a capitalist society, whereas communist parties still seek actual socialism.
  - palata 2y ago
    > What is the difference between socialism and communism It's a bit like the difference between "liberal" and "libertarian". It is a gradient. Socialism is a more global term that includes communism. Communism wants to remove social classes and the notion of state. But there are ways of being socialist in a democratic state. It is a gradient, you can be more or less extreme. Communism is a pretty extreme notion of socialism. Some EU countries are more "social", i.e. the socialist parties are strong and society is organized in a much, much social way than the US. But US people have this tendency to think that either you are libertarian, or you are communist.
    - mytailorisrich 2y ago
      As said, most socialist parties in Europe are no longer socialist... There is no gradient. Either you want private ownership or you want socialised ownership. I think you are not quite clear about what "socialism" means because there are so many "socialist" parties in Europe that have not actually been socialist for 70+ years... For instance in France, with people from the socialist party always referred to as "les socialistes"... Well, Miterrand and, say, Strauss-Khan, and even Macron (former banker...) who was finance minister in a "socialist government" are obviously as socialist as Barak Obama. The historic French socialist party, the SFIO, founded in 1905 was really socialist and split following the Russian revolution, whose supporters created the communist party (and they were actually the majority of the SFIO's members). They stayed socialist while the "socialist party" shifted over time to effectively social democracy. I think that this is because of the realisation that socialism requires authoritarism and does not work anyway, while pushing for more social measures within capitalism and a market economy can work.