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EU Council to Vote on Chat Scanning Proposal on Thursday

308 points by tdsone3 2y ago

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deleted 2y ago
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matricaria 2y ago
Are there ways to circumvent this? Selfhosting? Encryption before sending?
- abc123abc123 2y ago
  Not for the masses. They cannot be bothered and most likely don't care until it is too late. For the technologist, it is easy to circumvent in the private sphere of life at least. I foresee however, a digital ID that will be tied to all your essential services, that you will be required to have in order to live, and that's the tracking and communication point that will be used to get a hold of you. Kind of like the chinese social credit score, but in the EU of tomorrow, your digital EU idea will be the choking point. Do something out of line, and it can be revoked and with it, your bank, credit cards, health care, travel and other services.
  - tomalbrc 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - WitCanStain 2y ago
      Tinfoil? That is where we are headed. To handwave away concerns about where the current trajectory is going is very dismissive.
    - largelady97 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - ben_w 2y ago
    > but in the EU of tomorrow, your digital EU idea will be the choking point. Do something out of line, and it can be revoked and with it, your bank, credit cards, health care, travel and other services. I won't say that future will never happen only because "never" is a long time, but that's not happening in the foreseeable future. I'm in Germany right now, and theoretically my ID card can be used online. In practice, "Digitalisierung" is kinda a joke here, much like "paperless office". For example, I have to visit an office to activate that feature of my ID card, and another to tell them I've moved. During the pandemic, they briefly realised they didn't need to do that, then they forgot. Likewise with health, there's more than one health insurance provider just in Germany, let alone the whole EU, and if I move country (not just travel, move) my previous insurance isn't likely to work in the new place anyway — it would take substantial improvements before it would even be possible for someone to corrut it the way you're afraid of.
    - Sander_Marechal 2y ago
      Germany is a lot less digital than the rest of Europe though. Germans by-and-large even refuse to use debit cards (pin&chip). It's so strange visiting Germany as a tourist and not being able to pay with my card in a restaurant for example.
      - Semaphor 2y ago
        > Germans by-and-large even refuse to use debit cards (pin&chip) I’d call that a minority, especially since Covid. > not being able to pay with my card in a restaurant for example An even smaller minority, especially for restaurants, slightly larger for non-chain fast food places that probably also cheat on taxes. I don’t carry cash with me and pay almost everything with my MC debit or AMEX credit card, even in cases I can’t do that, I’d be able to pay with girocard (non-MC/Visa debit card, a widespread local system) if I had one.
        gambiting 2y ago
        >>An even smaller minority, especially for restaurants, slightly larger for non-chain fast food places that probably also cheat on taxes. Personal anecdote, but I've been travelling through Germany this winter and outside of motorway petrol stations and big supermarkets pretty much no one would accept my Visa/MasterCard cards - "EC Karten" only everywhere. We went to a big restaurant which I assumed would be ok because I could see the card terminal at the till, and at the end they told me it's EC Karten only - had to drive around at 11pm to find a working ATM just to withdraw some euro to pay them, while my wife and son waited at the restaurant - absolute nonsense.
- hans_castorp 2y ago
  Drive your tractor to Brussels and set some barricades on fire. Violent protests seem to be the way to change the EU commission's mind :(
  - hyperman1 2y ago
    You'll have to wait in line with every other protest going on, then. Some group is protesting something every day in Brussels. They're all insane and whining over the smallest things, except the ones aligned to my personal political vieuws, of course.
  - go_elmo 2y ago
    Worked for deprioritizing biodiversity efforts for the sake of mass produced animal products, because, more processing steps => higher economic yield. Money talks.
- zaik 2y ago
  I self-host a standard XMPP server for my family. Let's see how long it takes before this is illegal too.
  - rvnx 2y ago
    At the end, it could be a OS-based scanning, so no matter if the message is encrypted in transit, or self-hosted, then if the message is displayed it could be transmitted and scanned. Nobody wants terrorists, right ?
    - LadyCailin 2y ago
      That will never fly in every Linux distribution (if any at all), so there’s never going to be a way to stop this for even reasonably proficient criminals.
      - type0 2y ago
        NSA already considers and flags Linux users as "extremists", so it was only a question of time before agencies in EU would do the same
        rvnx 2y ago
        From a compliance perspective, TPM/signed bootloaders might be a "solution" against illegal Linux distributions.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    You actually get them to use it? That's the problem with most of these ideas: sure, you can just roll your own encryption, chat program, etc., but getting the people in your life to use it is another matter. My mom has enough trouble using the popular and ubiquitous chat app we communicate through; something custom is going to be beyond her.
    - amarcheschi 2y ago
- tdsone3 2y ago
  Self-hosted E2E encryption via Matrix might be one way: https://matrix.org/docs/matrix-concepts/end-to-end-encryption/ https://matrix.org/docs/matrix-concepts/end-to-end-encryptio...
- teekert 2y ago
  There is this in the table: "All services normally provided for remuneration (including ad-funded services) are in scope, without no threshold in size, number of users etc." "Only non-commercial services that are not ad-funded, such as many open source software, are out of scope" Weird right? But it would be weirder if they would outlaw the application of mathematical operations on your own messages... oh wait that's what they are proposing... Try and stop me. Are they going to put me in jail because I don't want them to read messages between me and my friends or my wife?
  - quectophoton 2y ago
    > Are they going to put me in jail because I don't want them to read messages between me and my friends or my wife? Them: "If you don't show us your messages, you are probably going to jail. So if you don't change your mind, and end up in jail without having shown us your messages, that means whatever was in those messages was way worse than going to jail. You probably knew you were going to get a longer sentence if you showed us those messages, and preferred to go with a shorter sentence of 'refusing to collaborate'."
    - mythhabit 2y ago
      "I forgot the password, sorry". I really do not hope they will start putting people in jail for being forgetful.
    - rightbyte 2y ago
      Oh dear don't give them ideas. I know like one password by heart if someone tries to force me to write it down.
      - teekert 2y ago
        Yeah, it's my Bitwarden password for me... So the $5 wrench will be very effective.
- constantcrying 2y ago
  >Selfhosting? I presumed self hosting a chat service becomes illegal with these laws?
- Zak 2y ago
  Many, and most of them are easy enough that anyone seriously concerned with privacy or secrecy will use them. They do take effort though, which means that while journalists, lawyers, corporations, governments, privacy nerds, and criminals will use them, the average person will not. What we would lose is that secure communication is actually mainstream now. Billions of people, many of whom don't even know what "end to end encrypted" means use messaging services with strong encryption including WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage, even Facebook chat in some cases. These services make mass surveillance difficult or impossible, and targeted surveillance of their users requires significant effort, such as installing malware on a target's device.
abc123abc123 2y ago
[flagged]
- piva00 2y ago
  There's absolutely nothing socialist about the EU, unless you don't know or understand what "socialism" means...
  - faku312 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - megous 2y ago
      So where's the "social ownership of the means of production"?
    - piva00 2y ago
      Socialism is not social democracy. Socialism is a economical system where workers own the means of production instead of capital owners. You do not know the meaning of political terms and are using your own preconceived notions of what they mean to then call a very capitalistic institution (as the EU is) something it's not. Educate yourself, it will do wonders for you and everyone you interact with.
    - zemnl 2y ago
      Since we are on a technical/scientific site I'll put it in mathematical terms: implementing social policies is a Necessary But Not Sufficient condition for a Country to be socialist. There are literally zero countries in the EU that are socialist, they only have ~some~ social policies.
  - ai_what 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - tomalbrc 2y ago
thefz 2y ago
https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/council-to-greenlight-chat-control-take-action-now/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/council-to-greenlight-chat-... Let your voice be heard! Contact your representatives (bottom of the page)!
- CalRobert 2y ago
  That website is a mess. I'm in the Netherlands. I started here: https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organization/COREPER/ https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organi... Then checked Netherlands under sublevels and wound up here: https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organization/COREPER/MDR_COREPER_151CS https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organi... and that seems to have the email address bre@minbuza.nl ? and finally I end up at https://www.netherlandsandyou.nl/web/pr-eu-brussels https://www.netherlandsandyou.nl/web/pr-eu-brussels which has no contact info. I'll try that email address anyway. I guess this is who I contact? https://www.netherlandsandyou.nl/web/pr-eu-brussels https://www.netherlandsandyou.nl/web/pr-eu-brussels edit: Well apparently NL is clear in opposing it but I am a citizen of Ireland (it's not really clear who my representation is in that case) so will try them...
  - anonzzzies 2y ago
    I just contacted the representation for where I am resident, not where I am from (I am also from NL and they seem to be against already). Can't hurt.
- rvnx 2y ago
  There were elections about a week ago, so people voted for that, did they change mind in a week ? If you go against what people voted for, isn't it denying democracy and the votes of the people ?
  - Ylpertnodi 2y ago
    It is good that you are getting to understand how 'democracy' works.
1ark 2y ago
https://archive.is/3CSSv https://archive.is/3CSSv
iLoveOncall 2y ago
Extremely clickbait title after the vote was supposed to happen today. It hasn't happened, it is postponed to tomorrow.
- tdsone3 2y ago
  sorry, wasn't intended - updated it
- raverbashing 2y ago
  Also it's the link to the generic page, not a news article (which has been debated several times in the past days) OTOH this generic page seems to explain it better and in a less sensationalistic way (on the other other hand I feel that privacy advocates should hire some PR companies to enhance the job of raising awareness - the pro-scanning NGOs put a lot of money on it)
egorfine 2y ago
They won't stop, won't they.
- hnthrowaway0328 2y ago
  No they won't. Thanks for the technological advances the perfect state is finally scientifically feasible.
  - dleeftink 2y ago
    Technically yes, but whether the implementations will work in perpetuity is another matter. Think how much resources are needed to keep legacy infrastructure running in the present day. Will these costs go down significantly once the next round of even more complicated bureaucratic management software comes into effect? The heavy surveillance states of today will prove an interesting case study of software/data upkeep.
  - luudrubics 2y ago
    [flagged]
- sph 2y ago
  The joys of representative democracy. The people are told they are free, but it's the oligarchy in their ivory tower that decide for you. Every few years you get told you can vote for the next liar to do their bidding in your name, and we, the people, keep the circus alive by telling each other "your vote counts! It's your fault if they're all thieves!" Government won't stop monitoring each and every citizen, and citizens have stopped any form of resistance, political or technological. Even in tech niches like this, cryptoanarchist ideas get routinely derided as useless and scams. We have lost.
  - aniviacat 2y ago
    I don't think this discussion is happening against people's wishes. I think people outside of tech (99% of people) are far more likely to support such a law. You may argue that this is due to them not being sufficiently informed, but that's not to be blamed on representative democracy.
bryanrasmussen 2y ago
This site is not very good at getting you to oppose this - two links to get to EU info on who to contact to oppose this - one click on EU info https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organization/REPRES_PERM/REPRES_PERM https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organi... one click there to get to your particular country. It sure would be nice if it had a list of people to contact at the top. Also HN is killing patrick-breyer's site, so it is even more difficult for all these committed people to find the place they should go look for who to contact. Contact in Denmark - brurep@um.dk is evidently the one.
1f60c 2y ago
Has anyone in power thought through the scale of this? Even if it has a frankly exceptional error rate of just 0.001%, that still means tens of thousands of innocent Europeans will have their lives ruined every day. And, assuming there's a human in the loop, who are we going to traumatize to check The Machine's work? Is it going to be Kenyans again^, or Eastern Europeans this time? ^ https://theguardian.com/technology/2023/aug/02/ai-chatbot-training-human-toll-content-moderator-meta-openai https://theguardian.com/technology/2023/aug/02/ai-chatbot-tr...
- madaxe_again 2y ago
  Everyone is guilty of something or has something to conceal. All one has to do is look hard enough to find what it is.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >Has anyone in power thought through the scale of this? Why would they? People in power and judges are always exempt from warrantless mass surveillance. They get actual privacy.
  - l33tman 2y ago
    France managed to get in an exemption in the proposal for their police and security workers, who can keep their privacy. I think the wording is that this would only apply to apps available to "the public". So if "the public" can't download your app, you're safe... I think it just shows it won't be possible to implement this in a useful way. Let's hope...
- teekert 2y ago
  Life ruined as in being flagged and investigated? Or as in, you sent some medical pics of your son's crotch to the dokter and some sicko on the scanning program looks at that photo and spreads it in his network? Both I guess...
  - Manabu-eo 2y ago
    > you sent some medical pics of your son's crotch and permanently lose access to your google acount, even after lots of stress and the police declaring you innocent[1]. Replace google acount by some other important thing. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/22/google-csam-account-blocked https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/22/google-cs...
questinthrow 2y ago
Why is anyone surprised about this? This will be a global phenomenon since LLMs together with ubiquitous surveillance brings down the costs of policing to 0. Just add police drones and you have a foolproof system. There is not a single country in this world whose leaders will decide that "nah we dont need perfect surveillance"
- peoplefromibiza 2y ago
  > Just add police drones and you have a foolproof system except you don't. And this is exactly the issue here: by removing police from the streets, doing policing work, not repression as they do in the US, people started feeling less and less secure, which is somewhat also kinda true and they will gladly accept anything that promises more security, which in turn will increase the sense of insecurity and promote more technological surveillance, in a never ending shitty feedback loop.
  - questinthrow 2y ago
    The loop is intentional though. You need political will to pass laws like these so you have to create crises for it. But as you say its a self sustaining cycle and the end result will be fully automated repression. The old arguments of "Oh well the policemen have families too" will go away once drones can enforce your dictatorship
    - peoplefromibiza 2y ago
      > The loop is intentional though Of course, but it's also a consequence of being rich countries. Nobody wants to actually be a cop anymore, after studying for years to get a degree and finally get a cop's salary, and I understand them. The good news is that unless you are Japanese living in a dystopian anime, automated (kawaiiii) drone repression will never work in practice. https://theglorioblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/psychopass2police.jpg https://theglorioblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/psychop...
      - 2y ago
mellosouls 2y ago
Whatever your position on this, can we have higher quality sources - we've already discussed this clickbait activist blog: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40710993 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40710993
sakex 2y ago
Another day I'm happy my country (Switzerland) respects its citizens wishes to not join EU
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  What's Switzerland's stance on this (message scanning)? From what I have seen this entire topic keeps coming up in the US, the UK and some European countries and is just impossible to keep dead, because some citizens are strongly lobbying in favor of it.
  - 4gotunameagain 2y ago
    It's easier to run a country when it is holding all the drug cartel and dictator money of the planet. You do not have to steal from your citizens as much.
  - HPsquared 2y ago
    The answer is to play the game, pay the piper, and lobby against it.
    - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
      I'm not sure if this can work long term unless some fundamentals change. A lot of victims of CSEM will keep that topic alive. It's rather unpopular to stand against this given that "live with it" is sort of the only alternative.
  - rvnx 2y ago
    The Swiss don't need this law because they have their own tradition of informing on each other.
- generic92034 2y ago
  Are you optimistic that Swiss citizens are unaffected by this?
- Pooge 2y ago
Flatfoot5676 2y ago
German contact: https://bruessel-eu.diplo.de/eu-de/staendigevertretungeu/kontakt-formular https://bruessel-eu.diplo.de/eu-de/staendigevertretungeu/kon...
everyone 2y ago
I'm not specifically talking about tfa, but I defo feel less enthused about net neutrality and such these days.. For a few reasons. 1. Internet is bad now In the 80's a new and truly utopian vision of personal computers, the internet, the web, was actually realised. But since then it's been taken over by monster corporations, the net has simply gone through the same process as systems before it (telegraph, telephone, TV) as described in "The Master Switch" by Tim Wu. In reality, for most users in 2024 it's no longer a utopian freeing force, its the opposite, a completely locked down system governed by utterly ruthless and reckless megacorps. 2. Internet is harmful There's loads of data appearing about the negative health effects of social media, screentime, etc. 3. Geopolitics The era of the peace dividend seems to be drawing to a close, and a new era of great power struggles beginning. Western democracies vs Autocracies (China, Russia, Iran, North Korea) It seems the autocratic countries are taking advantage of the weakness of the open net of the west, and using it to spread chaos and discord and destroy them from the inside. Stuff like the "Internet research Agency". Having the internet restricted by relatively trustworthy regulators like the EU, seems preferable to me to letting megacorps dominate and abuse it, causing harm for profit, or to let autocracies use it to sow chaos. I actually think it'd be a good idea nowadays to ban social media tbh.
- idle_zealot 2y ago
  It's not one or the other. No fundamental law states that the internet must be controlled by either powerful corporations or powerful governments. If governments did their job and enforced anti-trust and other consumer protection laws then neither would be the case.
  - everyone 2y ago
    I am thinking that wanting to fix the net might be living in the past. We'll never return to the old utopia. Like no effort ever fixed the previous systems of telegraph, telephone, radio, and tv, we just made new disruptive systems that ignored the old busted systems and created their own new one. Maybe the hackers of today should be focused on something like that instead of fighting a lost cause.
- 2y ago
wasmitnetzen 2y ago
The "EU" is not "greenlighting" that proposal this week. The Council of the EU will vote on their negotiation stance, which is merely one step in the legislative process, after which the Commission (which is pro-scanning) and the parliament (which is broadly against it) will get involved.
- tdsone3 2y ago
  Excuse my ignorance, updated the title. Seeing the discussion here, it did attract the wrong audience...
  - nyten10 2y ago
    [flagged]
- Jensson 2y ago
  And at every stage people will talk about how horrible EU is as if this has already passed, just like last time.
  - sva_ 2y ago
    The fact that we have to deal with this bullshit every couple months is a pretty depressing fact on its own.
    - rvnx 2y ago
      Add on top of that bullshit, the new plastic caps that the EU imposed instead of doing a refundable deposit per [bottle/cap pair].
      - rekoil 2y ago
        I'm sorry, are you talking about the plastic caps that stay attached to plastic bottles so that they are more likely to be disposed of properly rather than end up in some marine (or other nature) environment? I cannot believe you're comparing that (an effort designed to make recycling more effective, which is generally a good thing) to EU citizens entirely losing our access to privacy in the digital world.
xalava 2y ago
Dear HNautes, Politicians in Europe generally do not appreciate mass, repetitive emailing. It might even have an adversarial effect. If you want to be helpful, please consider more strategic alternatives such raising awareness among the general public, writing thoughtful arguments, or joining specialized non-profits or political parties.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Politicians in Europe generally do not appreciate mass, repetitive emailing Nobody likes this. A concise, thoughtful call or message carries a premium in the states, but only if you’re demonstrably a constituent. The reason is simple: it shows conviction. If you’re willing to pick up the phone, you might be willing to stump for an opponent. If you’re unwilling to do that, or are raving at the politician such that you would never be won over by them, you’re messaging you’re a lost cause.
  - hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
    Calls, emails, tweets, and texts are ephemeral and easily ignored. Send a handwritten letter to cuts through the noise because no one does it anymore.
- Xelbair 2y ago
  >Politicians in Europe generally do not appreciate mass, repetitive emailing. It might even have an adversarial effect. tough luck, it's their job. if they lash out due to that they are unfit to be in positions of power.
- lannisterstark 2y ago
  Oh I'm sorry, how dare I inconvenience a public servant.
teekert 2y ago
"Only non-commercial services that are not ad-funded, such as many open source software, are out of scope" So, what's the use of this law anyway? I do wonder what open source means though. Is Signal opensource? The client is, the server is not... Matrix is fully open source... And Whatsapp (which my country runs on) which has open source encryption...?
- quectophoton 2y ago
  Thinking like I want to take advantage of the letter of the law: > "End-to-end encrypted messenger services are not excluded from the scope" This was probably added precisely to include Signal, XMPP with OMEMO, etc. > "Hosting services affected include web hosting, social media, video streaming services, file hosting and cloud services" So not even self-hosting NAS, since this probably will be interpreted as "sharing with your family is still providing a file hosting service to them".
- rvense 2y ago
  So I can set up a server for my family and do no scanning, and that's not illegal. Can I let my neighbour join. How far down the street am I allowed to offer this service before it becomes in scope? Can I make a preconfigured, plug-and-play appliance that runs an encrypted chat server on a home internet connection and give that to someone I know? Someone I don't know? This is one of those extremely frustrating laws that's just going to hit everyone EXCEPT the ones who deserve it.
miki123211 2y ago
I find it very funny that this law's entire purpose could very well be defeated by another recent-ish EU law, namely the Digital Markets act. This law is somewhat workable if you assume that App Stores are the only way for mobile apps to be distributed. If users are allowed to sideload, as an app maker from a non-european country, you can just refuse to comply. This isn't possible with Apple's current implementation of this law, but that implementation is extremely likely to be ruled noncompliant anyway based on what the EU authorities are saying.
BobFromEnzyte 2y ago
The folks over at Tuta interviewed Patrick Breyer about this yesterday and his explanation of Chat Control is downright sinister. Link here: https://youtu.be/wSEI-dg3Hpo https://youtu.be/wSEI-dg3Hpo Let's keep spreading the word about this, the whole Chat Control debate seems to be ignored right now in the media.
- luudrubics 2y ago
  ofc, some guy at every TV channel can't wait to call up his homie at that gov. institution that gets to process all that data. marketaching*can y'all here the cashier dancing?
- generic92034 2y ago
  > Let's keep spreading the word about this, the whole Chat Control debate seems to be ignored right now in the media. Maybe it is not purely by chance that the EU is dealing with this topic during the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2024 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2024 ? ;)
  - BobFromEnzyte 2y ago
    Shit, I never thought about that
  - mythhabit 2y ago
    99.99999% not a coincident. These far reaching proposals almost always have critical stages when the public is concerned by something else.
127 2y ago
I'm going to be the controversial one here and just claim that more harm is currently done by unrestricted social media than any privacy invasions. Predators have free reign to do whatever they wish anonymously and get away with it. I don't want a dystopian big brother watching over my back, but that's where we are going if somebody doesn't come up with alternatives to control the abuse. I would personally vote for government issued public/private key cryptography. Sign with your key to verify that you are a citizen of such and such state, gaining a trusted unique identifier without subjecting yourself to a privacy invasion outside a court order. Or a similar system. I'm not an expert on the matter. Free spaces are still allowed, but as you don't have an pseudonymous identifier, nobody will trust you and should not. Also legislation around this should be built.
- Moldoteck 2y ago
  thing is, this chat control will not help. Criminals will use illegal tools while all the rest of the population will be subject to gov investigation (including monitoring political adversaries). And that's one thing - if the system is wrongly implemented, this backdoor could be accessed by 3'rd parties/hackers and at that point it would be a clown show. Unrestricted social media is another problem that should be solved, it'll not be solved by this law, in fact it may worsen it if certain actors will want to alter backdoor mechanism so that the access to all the data will not be shared only with govt
  - 127 2y ago
    It will help. Just as any system that has trade-offs. So much of human existence would be much simpler and happier if we didn't have to build systems to control crime and bad behavior. Is it a system I want? No. I think there are better options. Do I see people in this thread proposing any better options? No. So the default seems to be Orwellian as everyone is too dismissive, arrogant and lazy.
    - Moldoteck 2y ago
      better option is to leave privacy as is. You basically trade a dream of catching criminals (that will switch to illegal tools to keep their data hidden) to a reality where govts,hackers and big corpos can get your data much easier and use it against you. If you think there are better options, the solution is to cancel this privacy invading law and start discussing abt those better solutions instead of implementing a law that will hurt ppl by design by offering much more power to govs, corporations and much bigger surface attack for hackers
CodinM 2y ago
I tried, but got back answers like "in this security climate? that sounds like a good idea". I've just finished setting up Matrix, I'm tired of this.
cryptica 2y ago
There is something weird about EU approach to online child protection. They project themselves as being hell-bent on solving the problem, yet, as with the US with the Jeffrey Epstein case, they are curiously inactive when it comes to prosecution of pedophiles. As if they're keen to find them, but not so keen to lock them up. WTF do they do with these pedophiles once they find them? Promote them to public office so they can be extorted and controlled? It doesn't add up. Seems like there is something weird about EU and pedophilia. Coincidentally, it seems as if the EU is operating under the thumb of a foreign power. After being involved in the tech sector there, it has been a recurring theme. I never heard about that stuff when working for US tech companies. In other countries, they also handle the problem but they don't constantly virtue-signal about it. Also when I was in the crypto space working on EU-backed projects, I heard rumors that some of the founders had been victims (or maybe also the other way? Like a cult) I inferred that they were being extorted. When I read conspiracy theories about that sort of stuff, it oddly resonates with some of my experiences in the tech sector when you get close to the big money and big politics. The increase of popularity of conspiracy theories and the recurring theme of pedophilia is also starting to seem suspicious.
ExoticPearTree 2y ago
The problem with the current state of the EU is that it is governed by unelected politicians - the EU Comission, and they are very out of touch with reality. Plus the fact they managed to make themselves very hard to control or remove from power. Latest example being farmers that are being targeted and until they did not come to Brussels to dump manure in the streets, the EU Comission did not care a bit of the harm they were causing them. And it did not care even then until France used its power to get it to listen. The EU started as a nice project that is slowly becoming something thst not even in the wildest communist dreams was thought not possible.
- mariusor 2y ago
  In this specific example it's not the Commission that drives this initiative, but the Council, which is formed of head of states for the individual members.
voytec 2y ago
It's sickening how corporations like Apple and governments like EU council use child abuse for wide, unrestricted invigilation of common folk. "Guilty until proven innocent" seems to be the new reality.
- doublerabbit 2y ago
  It's the easiest topic matter to push agenda's from. As out of the two below, which is more fearful? "Your child could be used in pornography" "Criminals are selling weed via text message for €5 a gram" The Simpsons "won't someone think of the children" meme demonstrates it well.
0dayz 2y ago
It feels so polarizing with the EU at one point they push for strong privacy laws the next they push shit like this. It's like their gun law that was a response to the Islamic terrorists using smuggled ak47 from the balkans but the law flat out bans anything bugger than a pistol pretty much.
hcks 2y ago
Where all the “that’s an America problem, here in the EU…” posters?
art0rz 2y ago
I've (with help of ChatGPT) written an email that I've sent to all representatives. Feel free to use it! To: info.belgoeurop@diplobel.fed.be, mission.brusselseu@bg-permrep.eu, eu.brussels@embassy.mzv.cz, brurep@um.dk, info@bruessel-eu.diplo.de, permrep.eu@mfa.ee, irlprb@dfa.ie, mea.bruxelles@rp-grece.be, reper.bruselasue@reper.maec.es, courrier.bruxelles-dfra@diplomatie.gouv.fr, hr.perm.rep@mvep.hr, rpue.rpue@esteri.it, cy.perm.rep@mfa.gov.cy, permrep.eu@mfa.gov.lv, office@eu.mfa.lt, bruxelles.rpue@mae.etat.lu, sec.beu@mfa.gov.hu, maltarep@gov.mt, bre@minbuza.nl, bruessel-ov@bmeia.gv.at, bebrustpe@msz.gov.pl, reper@mne.pt, bru@rpro.eu, slomission.eu@gov.si, eu.brussels@mzv.sk, sanomat.eue@formin.fi, representationen.bryssel@gov.se Subject: Urgent: Chat Control Dear Representative, I am writing to express my deep concerns regarding Chat Control. As a citizen of the European Union, I am committed to safeguarding our fundamental rights and freedoms, particularly the right to privacy and the protection of personal data. The Chat Control Chat Control poses several significant risks: Invasion of Privacy: The proposed measures would lead to the mass surveillance of private communications, undermining the privacy of all EU citizens. This broad surveillance is disproportionate and infringes on our fundamental right to private correspondence. Security Risks: Weakening encryption to facilitate the monitoring of communications makes all users more vulnerable to cyberattacks. Encryption is essential for protecting sensitive data, including financial information, personal communications, and sensitive business data. Potential for Abuse: Granting authorities the power to monitor private communications without adequate checks and balances can lead to misuse and abuse of power. This undermines trust in both governmental and digital platforms. Stifling Innovation: Chat Control could have a chilling effect on tech innovation within the EU. Companies may be discouraged from developing new technologies or offering their services in the EU due to increased regulatory burdens and privacy concerns. I urge you to oppose Chat Control and advocate for solutions that protect children online without compromising the privacy and security of all citizens. Alternatives such as targeted interventions, improved digital literacy, and support for responsible online behavior are more effective and less intrusive ways to achieve these goals. Protecting the privacy and security of our digital communications is crucial for maintaining trust in the digital economy and upholding the values of the European Union. I hope you will consider these points and vote against Chat Control. Thank you for your attention to this critical matter. Yours sincerely, [your name/address/etc.] If you are outside the EU, change the first paragraph to: I am writing to express my deep concern regarding the proposed Chat Control legislation, despite not being a resident of the European Union. As someone who values privacy and security in digital communications, I believe this legislation has far-reaching implications that extend beyond the borders of the EU.
ekianjo 2y ago
at some point we need to bring back the idea of direct democracy on the table (online voting with blockchain or whatever) so that "representatives" are not needed anymore and cant be lobbied year on year against individual interests
waspight 2y ago
How will this affect companies in a technical aspect? Just no more e2e encryption available in the clients? Or will it be some kind of weird e2e with a backdoor (which is not how encryption works)…
bratwurst3000 2y ago
This shit is because of an organization that pushes their shitty products. Lobbysm in the EU is fucking out of control . https://netzpolitik.org/2022/dude-wheres-my-privacy-how-a-hollywood-star-lobbies-the-eu-for-more-surveillance/#netzpolitik-pw https://netzpolitik.org/2022/dude-wheres-my-privacy-how-a-ho...
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
[dupe] Incorrect link to match title, lots of recent discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40710993 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40710993
type0 2y ago
Does it mean that chat communications with steganography would also be outlawed in EU?

308 points by tdsone3 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

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matricaria 2y ago

Are there ways to circumvent this? Selfhosting? Encryption before sending?

abc123abc123 2y ago
Not for the masses. They cannot be bothered and most likely don't care until it is too late. For the technologist, it is easy to circumvent in the private sphere of life at least. I foresee however, a digital ID that will be tied to all your essential services, that you will be required to have in order to live, and that's the tracking and communication point that will be used to get a hold of you. Kind of like the chinese social credit score, but in the EU of tomorrow, your digital EU idea will be the choking point. Do something out of line, and it can be revoked and with it, your bank, credit cards, health care, travel and other services.
- tomalbrc 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - WitCanStain 2y ago
    Tinfoil? That is where we are headed. To handwave away concerns about where the current trajectory is going is very dismissive.
  - largelady97 2y ago
    [flagged]
- ben_w 2y ago
  > but in the EU of tomorrow, your digital EU idea will be the choking point. Do something out of line, and it can be revoked and with it, your bank, credit cards, health care, travel and other services. I won't say that future will never happen only because "never" is a long time, but that's not happening in the foreseeable future. I'm in Germany right now, and theoretically my ID card can be used online. In practice, "Digitalisierung" is kinda a joke here, much like "paperless office". For example, I have to visit an office to activate that feature of my ID card, and another to tell them I've moved. During the pandemic, they briefly realised they didn't need to do that, then they forgot. Likewise with health, there's more than one health insurance provider just in Germany, let alone the whole EU, and if I move country (not just travel, move) my previous insurance isn't likely to work in the new place anyway — it would take substantial improvements before it would even be possible for someone to corrut it the way you're afraid of.
  - Sander_Marechal 2y ago
    Germany is a lot less digital than the rest of Europe though. Germans by-and-large even refuse to use debit cards (pin&chip). It's so strange visiting Germany as a tourist and not being able to pay with my card in a restaurant for example.
    - Semaphor 2y ago
      > Germans by-and-large even refuse to use debit cards (pin&chip) I’d call that a minority, especially since Covid. > not being able to pay with my card in a restaurant for example An even smaller minority, especially for restaurants, slightly larger for non-chain fast food places that probably also cheat on taxes. I don’t carry cash with me and pay almost everything with my MC debit or AMEX credit card, even in cases I can’t do that, I’d be able to pay with girocard (non-MC/Visa debit card, a widespread local system) if I had one.
      - gambiting 2y ago
        >>An even smaller minority, especially for restaurants, slightly larger for non-chain fast food places that probably also cheat on taxes. Personal anecdote, but I've been travelling through Germany this winter and outside of motorway petrol stations and big supermarkets pretty much no one would accept my Visa/MasterCard cards - "EC Karten" only everywhere. We went to a big restaurant which I assumed would be ok because I could see the card terminal at the till, and at the end they told me it's EC Karten only - had to drive around at 11pm to find a working ATM just to withdraw some euro to pay them, while my wife and son waited at the restaurant - absolute nonsense.
hans_castorp 2y ago
Drive your tractor to Brussels and set some barricades on fire. Violent protests seem to be the way to change the EU commission's mind :(
- hyperman1 2y ago
  You'll have to wait in line with every other protest going on, then. Some group is protesting something every day in Brussels. They're all insane and whining over the smallest things, except the ones aligned to my personal political vieuws, of course.
- go_elmo 2y ago
  Worked for deprioritizing biodiversity efforts for the sake of mass produced animal products, because, more processing steps => higher economic yield. Money talks.
zaik 2y ago
I self-host a standard XMPP server for my family. Let's see how long it takes before this is illegal too.
- rvnx 2y ago
  At the end, it could be a OS-based scanning, so no matter if the message is encrypted in transit, or self-hosted, then if the message is displayed it could be transmitted and scanned. Nobody wants terrorists, right ?
  - LadyCailin 2y ago
    That will never fly in every Linux distribution (if any at all), so there’s never going to be a way to stop this for even reasonably proficient criminals.
    - type0 2y ago
      NSA already considers and flags Linux users as "extremists", so it was only a question of time before agencies in EU would do the same
      - rvnx 2y ago
        From a compliance perspective, TPM/signed bootloaders might be a "solution" against illegal Linux distributions.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  You actually get them to use it? That's the problem with most of these ideas: sure, you can just roll your own encryption, chat program, etc., but getting the people in your life to use it is another matter. My mom has enough trouble using the popular and ubiquitous chat app we communicate through; something custom is going to be beyond her.
  - amarcheschi 2y ago
tdsone3 2y ago
Self-hosted E2E encryption via Matrix might be one way: https://matrix.org/docs/matrix-concepts/end-to-end-encryption/ https://matrix.org/docs/matrix-concepts/end-to-end-encryptio...
teekert 2y ago
There is this in the table: "All services normally provided for remuneration (including ad-funded services) are in scope, without no threshold in size, number of users etc." "Only non-commercial services that are not ad-funded, such as many open source software, are out of scope" Weird right? But it would be weirder if they would outlaw the application of mathematical operations on your own messages... oh wait that's what they are proposing... Try and stop me. Are they going to put me in jail because I don't want them to read messages between me and my friends or my wife?
- quectophoton 2y ago
  > Are they going to put me in jail because I don't want them to read messages between me and my friends or my wife? Them: "If you don't show us your messages, you are probably going to jail. So if you don't change your mind, and end up in jail without having shown us your messages, that means whatever was in those messages was way worse than going to jail. You probably knew you were going to get a longer sentence if you showed us those messages, and preferred to go with a shorter sentence of 'refusing to collaborate'."
  - mythhabit 2y ago
    "I forgot the password, sorry". I really do not hope they will start putting people in jail for being forgetful.
  - rightbyte 2y ago
    Oh dear don't give them ideas. I know like one password by heart if someone tries to force me to write it down.
    - teekert 2y ago
      Yeah, it's my Bitwarden password for me... So the $5 wrench will be very effective.
constantcrying 2y ago
>Selfhosting? I presumed self hosting a chat service becomes illegal with these laws?
Zak 2y ago
Many, and most of them are easy enough that anyone seriously concerned with privacy or secrecy will use them. They do take effort though, which means that while journalists, lawyers, corporations, governments, privacy nerds, and criminals will use them, the average person will not. What we would lose is that secure communication is actually mainstream now. Billions of people, many of whom don't even know what "end to end encrypted" means use messaging services with strong encryption including WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage, even Facebook chat in some cases. These services make mass surveillance difficult or impossible, and targeted surveillance of their users requires significant effort, such as installing malware on a target's device.

abc123abc123 2y ago

[flagged]

piva00 2y ago
There's absolutely nothing socialist about the EU, unless you don't know or understand what "socialism" means...
- faku312 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - megous 2y ago
    So where's the "social ownership of the means of production"?
  - piva00 2y ago
    Socialism is not social democracy. Socialism is a economical system where workers own the means of production instead of capital owners. You do not know the meaning of political terms and are using your own preconceived notions of what they mean to then call a very capitalistic institution (as the EU is) something it's not. Educate yourself, it will do wonders for you and everyone you interact with.
  - zemnl 2y ago
    Since we are on a technical/scientific site I'll put it in mathematical terms: implementing social policies is a Necessary But Not Sufficient condition for a Country to be socialist. There are literally zero countries in the EU that are socialist, they only have ~some~ social policies.
- ai_what 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - tomalbrc 2y ago

thefz 2y ago

https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/council-to-greenlight-chat-control-take-action-now/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/council-to-greenlight-chat-... Let your voice be heard! Contact your representatives (bottom of the page)!

CalRobert 2y ago
That website is a mess. I'm in the Netherlands. I started here: https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organization/COREPER/ https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organi... Then checked Netherlands under sublevels and wound up here: https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organization/COREPER/MDR_COREPER_151CS https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organi... and that seems to have the email address bre@minbuza.nl ? and finally I end up at https://www.netherlandsandyou.nl/web/pr-eu-brussels https://www.netherlandsandyou.nl/web/pr-eu-brussels which has no contact info. I'll try that email address anyway. I guess this is who I contact? https://www.netherlandsandyou.nl/web/pr-eu-brussels https://www.netherlandsandyou.nl/web/pr-eu-brussels edit: Well apparently NL is clear in opposing it but I am a citizen of Ireland (it's not really clear who my representation is in that case) so will try them...
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  I just contacted the representation for where I am resident, not where I am from (I am also from NL and they seem to be against already). Can't hurt.
rvnx 2y ago
There were elections about a week ago, so people voted for that, did they change mind in a week ? If you go against what people voted for, isn't it denying democracy and the votes of the people ?
- Ylpertnodi 2y ago
  It is good that you are getting to understand how 'democracy' works.

1ark 2y ago

https://archive.is/3CSSv https://archive.is/3CSSv

iLoveOncall 2y ago

Extremely clickbait title after the vote was supposed to happen today. It hasn't happened, it is postponed to tomorrow.

tdsone3 2y ago
sorry, wasn't intended - updated it
raverbashing 2y ago
Also it's the link to the generic page, not a news article (which has been debated several times in the past days) OTOH this generic page seems to explain it better and in a less sensationalistic way (on the other other hand I feel that privacy advocates should hire some PR companies to enhance the job of raising awareness - the pro-scanning NGOs put a lot of money on it)

egorfine 2y ago

They won't stop, won't they.

hnthrowaway0328 2y ago
No they won't. Thanks for the technological advances the perfect state is finally scientifically feasible.
- dleeftink 2y ago
  Technically yes, but whether the implementations will work in perpetuity is another matter. Think how much resources are needed to keep legacy infrastructure running in the present day. Will these costs go down significantly once the next round of even more complicated bureaucratic management software comes into effect? The heavy surveillance states of today will prove an interesting case study of software/data upkeep.
- luudrubics 2y ago
  [flagged]
sph 2y ago
The joys of representative democracy. The people are told they are free, but it's the oligarchy in their ivory tower that decide for you. Every few years you get told you can vote for the next liar to do their bidding in your name, and we, the people, keep the circus alive by telling each other "your vote counts! It's your fault if they're all thieves!" Government won't stop monitoring each and every citizen, and citizens have stopped any form of resistance, political or technological. Even in tech niches like this, cryptoanarchist ideas get routinely derided as useless and scams. We have lost.
- aniviacat 2y ago
  I don't think this discussion is happening against people's wishes. I think people outside of tech (99% of people) are far more likely to support such a law. You may argue that this is due to them not being sufficiently informed, but that's not to be blamed on representative democracy.

bryanrasmussen 2y ago

This site is not very good at getting you to oppose this - two links to get to EU info on who to contact to oppose this - one click on EU info https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organization/REPRES_PERM/REPRES_PERM https://op.europa.eu/en/web/who-is-who/organization/-/organi... one click there to get to your particular country. It sure would be nice if it had a list of people to contact at the top. Also HN is killing patrick-breyer's site, so it is even more difficult for all these committed people to find the place they should go look for who to contact. Contact in Denmark - brurep@um.dk is evidently the one.

1f60c 2y ago

Has anyone in power thought through the scale of this? Even if it has a frankly exceptional error rate of just 0.001%, that still means tens of thousands of innocent Europeans will have their lives ruined every day. And, assuming there's a human in the loop, who are we going to traumatize to check The Machine's work? Is it going to be Kenyans again^, or Eastern Europeans this time? ^ https://theguardian.com/technology/2023/aug/02/ai-chatbot-training-human-toll-content-moderator-meta-openai https://theguardian.com/technology/2023/aug/02/ai-chatbot-tr...

madaxe_again 2y ago
Everyone is guilty of something or has something to conceal. All one has to do is look hard enough to find what it is.
Rinzler89 2y ago
>Has anyone in power thought through the scale of this? Why would they? People in power and judges are always exempt from warrantless mass surveillance. They get actual privacy.
- l33tman 2y ago
  France managed to get in an exemption in the proposal for their police and security workers, who can keep their privacy. I think the wording is that this would only apply to apps available to "the public". So if "the public" can't download your app, you're safe... I think it just shows it won't be possible to implement this in a useful way. Let's hope...
teekert 2y ago
Life ruined as in being flagged and investigated? Or as in, you sent some medical pics of your son's crotch to the dokter and some sicko on the scanning program looks at that photo and spreads it in his network? Both I guess...
- Manabu-eo 2y ago
  > you sent some medical pics of your son's crotch and permanently lose access to your google acount, even after lots of stress and the police declaring you innocent[1]. Replace google acount by some other important thing. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/22/google-csam-account-blocked https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/22/google-cs...

questinthrow 2y ago

Why is anyone surprised about this? This will be a global phenomenon since LLMs together with ubiquitous surveillance brings down the costs of policing to 0. Just add police drones and you have a foolproof system. There is not a single country in this world whose leaders will decide that "nah we dont need perfect surveillance"

peoplefromibiza 2y ago
> Just add police drones and you have a foolproof system except you don't. And this is exactly the issue here: by removing police from the streets, doing policing work, not repression as they do in the US, people started feeling less and less secure, which is somewhat also kinda true and they will gladly accept anything that promises more security, which in turn will increase the sense of insecurity and promote more technological surveillance, in a never ending shitty feedback loop.
- questinthrow 2y ago
  The loop is intentional though. You need political will to pass laws like these so you have to create crises for it. But as you say its a self sustaining cycle and the end result will be fully automated repression. The old arguments of "Oh well the policemen have families too" will go away once drones can enforce your dictatorship
  - peoplefromibiza 2y ago
    > The loop is intentional though Of course, but it's also a consequence of being rich countries. Nobody wants to actually be a cop anymore, after studying for years to get a degree and finally get a cop's salary, and I understand them. The good news is that unless you are Japanese living in a dystopian anime, automated (kawaiiii) drone repression will never work in practice. https://theglorioblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/psychopass2police.jpg https://theglorioblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/psychop...
    - 2y ago

mellosouls 2y ago

Whatever your position on this, can we have higher quality sources - we've already discussed this clickbait activist blog: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40710993 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40710993

sakex 2y ago

Another day I'm happy my country (Switzerland) respects its citizens wishes to not join EU

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
What's Switzerland's stance on this (message scanning)? From what I have seen this entire topic keeps coming up in the US, the UK and some European countries and is just impossible to keep dead, because some citizens are strongly lobbying in favor of it.
- 4gotunameagain 2y ago
  It's easier to run a country when it is holding all the drug cartel and dictator money of the planet. You do not have to steal from your citizens as much.
- HPsquared 2y ago
  The answer is to play the game, pay the piper, and lobby against it.
  - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
    I'm not sure if this can work long term unless some fundamentals change. A lot of victims of CSEM will keep that topic alive. It's rather unpopular to stand against this given that "live with it" is sort of the only alternative.
- rvnx 2y ago
  The Swiss don't need this law because they have their own tradition of informing on each other.
generic92034 2y ago
Are you optimistic that Swiss citizens are unaffected by this?
Pooge 2y ago

Flatfoot5676 2y ago

German contact: https://bruessel-eu.diplo.de/eu-de/staendigevertretungeu/kontakt-formular https://bruessel-eu.diplo.de/eu-de/staendigevertretungeu/kon...

everyone 2y ago

I'm not specifically talking about tfa, but I defo feel less enthused about net neutrality and such these days.. For a few reasons. 1. Internet is bad now In the 80's a new and truly utopian vision of personal computers, the internet, the web, was actually realised. But since then it's been taken over by monster corporations, the net has simply gone through the same process as systems before it (telegraph, telephone, TV) as described in "The Master Switch" by Tim Wu. In reality, for most users in 2024 it's no longer a utopian freeing force, its the opposite, a completely locked down system governed by utterly ruthless and reckless megacorps. 2. Internet is harmful There's loads of data appearing about the negative health effects of social media, screentime, etc. 3. Geopolitics The era of the peace dividend seems to be drawing to a close, and a new era of great power struggles beginning. Western democracies vs Autocracies (China, Russia, Iran, North Korea) It seems the autocratic countries are taking advantage of the weakness of the open net of the west, and using it to spread chaos and discord and destroy them from the inside. Stuff like the "Internet research Agency". Having the internet restricted by relatively trustworthy regulators like the EU, seems preferable to me to letting megacorps dominate and abuse it, causing harm for profit, or to let autocracies use it to sow chaos. I actually think it'd be a good idea nowadays to ban social media tbh.

idle_zealot 2y ago
It's not one or the other. No fundamental law states that the internet must be controlled by either powerful corporations or powerful governments. If governments did their job and enforced anti-trust and other consumer protection laws then neither would be the case.
- everyone 2y ago
  I am thinking that wanting to fix the net might be living in the past. We'll never return to the old utopia. Like no effort ever fixed the previous systems of telegraph, telephone, radio, and tv, we just made new disruptive systems that ignored the old busted systems and created their own new one. Maybe the hackers of today should be focused on something like that instead of fighting a lost cause.
2y ago

wasmitnetzen 2y ago

The "EU" is not "greenlighting" that proposal this week. The Council of the EU will vote on their negotiation stance, which is merely one step in the legislative process, after which the Commission (which is pro-scanning) and the parliament (which is broadly against it) will get involved.

tdsone3 2y ago
Excuse my ignorance, updated the title. Seeing the discussion here, it did attract the wrong audience...
- nyten10 2y ago
  [flagged]
Jensson 2y ago
And at every stage people will talk about how horrible EU is as if this has already passed, just like last time.
- sva_ 2y ago
  The fact that we have to deal with this bullshit every couple months is a pretty depressing fact on its own.
  - rvnx 2y ago
    Add on top of that bullshit, the new plastic caps that the EU imposed instead of doing a refundable deposit per [bottle/cap pair].
    - rekoil 2y ago
      I'm sorry, are you talking about the plastic caps that stay attached to plastic bottles so that they are more likely to be disposed of properly rather than end up in some marine (or other nature) environment? I cannot believe you're comparing that (an effort designed to make recycling more effective, which is generally a good thing) to EU citizens entirely losing our access to privacy in the digital world.

xalava 2y ago

Dear HNautes, Politicians in Europe generally do not appreciate mass, repetitive emailing. It might even have an adversarial effect. If you want to be helpful, please consider more strategic alternatives such raising awareness among the general public, writing thoughtful arguments, or joining specialized non-profits or political parties.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Politicians in Europe generally do not appreciate mass, repetitive emailing Nobody likes this. A concise, thoughtful call or message carries a premium in the states, but only if you’re demonstrably a constituent. The reason is simple: it shows conviction. If you’re willing to pick up the phone, you might be willing to stump for an opponent. If you’re unwilling to do that, or are raving at the politician such that you would never be won over by them, you’re messaging you’re a lost cause.
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
  Calls, emails, tweets, and texts are ephemeral and easily ignored. Send a handwritten letter to cuts through the noise because no one does it anymore.
Xelbair 2y ago
>Politicians in Europe generally do not appreciate mass, repetitive emailing. It might even have an adversarial effect. tough luck, it's their job. if they lash out due to that they are unfit to be in positions of power.
lannisterstark 2y ago
Oh I'm sorry, how dare I inconvenience a public servant.

teekert 2y ago

"Only non-commercial services that are not ad-funded, such as many open source software, are out of scope" So, what's the use of this law anyway? I do wonder what open source means though. Is Signal opensource? The client is, the server is not... Matrix is fully open source... And Whatsapp (which my country runs on) which has open source encryption...?

quectophoton 2y ago
Thinking like I want to take advantage of the letter of the law: > "End-to-end encrypted messenger services are not excluded from the scope" This was probably added precisely to include Signal, XMPP with OMEMO, etc. > "Hosting services affected include web hosting, social media, video streaming services, file hosting and cloud services" So not even self-hosting NAS, since this probably will be interpreted as "sharing with your family is still providing a file hosting service to them".
rvense 2y ago
So I can set up a server for my family and do no scanning, and that's not illegal. Can I let my neighbour join. How far down the street am I allowed to offer this service before it becomes in scope? Can I make a preconfigured, plug-and-play appliance that runs an encrypted chat server on a home internet connection and give that to someone I know? Someone I don't know? This is one of those extremely frustrating laws that's just going to hit everyone EXCEPT the ones who deserve it.

miki123211 2y ago

I find it very funny that this law's entire purpose could very well be defeated by another recent-ish EU law, namely the Digital Markets act. This law is somewhat workable if you assume that App Stores are the only way for mobile apps to be distributed. If users are allowed to sideload, as an app maker from a non-european country, you can just refuse to comply. This isn't possible with Apple's current implementation of this law, but that implementation is extremely likely to be ruled noncompliant anyway based on what the EU authorities are saying.

BobFromEnzyte 2y ago

The folks over at Tuta interviewed Patrick Breyer about this yesterday and his explanation of Chat Control is downright sinister. Link here: https://youtu.be/wSEI-dg3Hpo https://youtu.be/wSEI-dg3Hpo Let's keep spreading the word about this, the whole Chat Control debate seems to be ignored right now in the media.

luudrubics 2y ago
ofc, some guy at every TV channel can't wait to call up his homie at that gov. institution that gets to process all that data. marketaching*can y'all here the cashier dancing?
generic92034 2y ago
> Let's keep spreading the word about this, the whole Chat Control debate seems to be ignored right now in the media. Maybe it is not purely by chance that the EU is dealing with this topic during the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2024 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Euro_2024 ? ;)
- BobFromEnzyte 2y ago
  Shit, I never thought about that
- mythhabit 2y ago
  99.99999% not a coincident. These far reaching proposals almost always have critical stages when the public is concerned by something else.

127 2y ago

I'm going to be the controversial one here and just claim that more harm is currently done by unrestricted social media than any privacy invasions. Predators have free reign to do whatever they wish anonymously and get away with it. I don't want a dystopian big brother watching over my back, but that's where we are going if somebody doesn't come up with alternatives to control the abuse. I would personally vote for government issued public/private key cryptography. Sign with your key to verify that you are a citizen of such and such state, gaining a trusted unique identifier without subjecting yourself to a privacy invasion outside a court order. Or a similar system. I'm not an expert on the matter. Free spaces are still allowed, but as you don't have an pseudonymous identifier, nobody will trust you and should not. Also legislation around this should be built.

Moldoteck 2y ago
thing is, this chat control will not help. Criminals will use illegal tools while all the rest of the population will be subject to gov investigation (including monitoring political adversaries). And that's one thing - if the system is wrongly implemented, this backdoor could be accessed by 3'rd parties/hackers and at that point it would be a clown show. Unrestricted social media is another problem that should be solved, it'll not be solved by this law, in fact it may worsen it if certain actors will want to alter backdoor mechanism so that the access to all the data will not be shared only with govt
- 127 2y ago
  It will help. Just as any system that has trade-offs. So much of human existence would be much simpler and happier if we didn't have to build systems to control crime and bad behavior. Is it a system I want? No. I think there are better options. Do I see people in this thread proposing any better options? No. So the default seems to be Orwellian as everyone is too dismissive, arrogant and lazy.
  - Moldoteck 2y ago
    better option is to leave privacy as is. You basically trade a dream of catching criminals (that will switch to illegal tools to keep their data hidden) to a reality where govts,hackers and big corpos can get your data much easier and use it against you. If you think there are better options, the solution is to cancel this privacy invading law and start discussing abt those better solutions instead of implementing a law that will hurt ppl by design by offering much more power to govs, corporations and much bigger surface attack for hackers

CodinM 2y ago

I tried, but got back answers like "in this security climate? that sounds like a good idea". I've just finished setting up Matrix, I'm tired of this.

cryptica 2y ago

There is something weird about EU approach to online child protection. They project themselves as being hell-bent on solving the problem, yet, as with the US with the Jeffrey Epstein case, they are curiously inactive when it comes to prosecution of pedophiles. As if they're keen to find them, but not so keen to lock them up. WTF do they do with these pedophiles once they find them? Promote them to public office so they can be extorted and controlled? It doesn't add up. Seems like there is something weird about EU and pedophilia. Coincidentally, it seems as if the EU is operating under the thumb of a foreign power. After being involved in the tech sector there, it has been a recurring theme. I never heard about that stuff when working for US tech companies. In other countries, they also handle the problem but they don't constantly virtue-signal about it. Also when I was in the crypto space working on EU-backed projects, I heard rumors that some of the founders had been victims (or maybe also the other way? Like a cult) I inferred that they were being extorted. When I read conspiracy theories about that sort of stuff, it oddly resonates with some of my experiences in the tech sector when you get close to the big money and big politics. The increase of popularity of conspiracy theories and the recurring theme of pedophilia is also starting to seem suspicious.

ExoticPearTree 2y ago

The problem with the current state of the EU is that it is governed by unelected politicians - the EU Comission, and they are very out of touch with reality. Plus the fact they managed to make themselves very hard to control or remove from power. Latest example being farmers that are being targeted and until they did not come to Brussels to dump manure in the streets, the EU Comission did not care a bit of the harm they were causing them. And it did not care even then until France used its power to get it to listen. The EU started as a nice project that is slowly becoming something thst not even in the wildest communist dreams was thought not possible.

mariusor 2y ago
In this specific example it's not the Commission that drives this initiative, but the Council, which is formed of head of states for the individual members.

voytec 2y ago

It's sickening how corporations like Apple and governments like EU council use child abuse for wide, unrestricted invigilation of common folk. "Guilty until proven innocent" seems to be the new reality.

doublerabbit 2y ago
It's the easiest topic matter to push agenda's from. As out of the two below, which is more fearful? "Your child could be used in pornography" "Criminals are selling weed via text message for €5 a gram" The Simpsons "won't someone think of the children" meme demonstrates it well.

0dayz 2y ago

It feels so polarizing with the EU at one point they push for strong privacy laws the next they push shit like this. It's like their gun law that was a response to the Islamic terrorists using smuggled ak47 from the balkans but the law flat out bans anything bugger than a pistol pretty much.

hcks 2y ago

Where all the “that’s an America problem, here in the EU…” posters?

art0rz 2y ago

I've (with help of ChatGPT) written an email that I've sent to all representatives. Feel free to use it! To: info.belgoeurop@diplobel.fed.be, mission.brusselseu@bg-permrep.eu, eu.brussels@embassy.mzv.cz, brurep@um.dk, info@bruessel-eu.diplo.de, permrep.eu@mfa.ee, irlprb@dfa.ie, mea.bruxelles@rp-grece.be, reper.bruselasue@reper.maec.es, courrier.bruxelles-dfra@diplomatie.gouv.fr, hr.perm.rep@mvep.hr, rpue.rpue@esteri.it, cy.perm.rep@mfa.gov.cy, permrep.eu@mfa.gov.lv, office@eu.mfa.lt, bruxelles.rpue@mae.etat.lu, sec.beu@mfa.gov.hu, maltarep@gov.mt, bre@minbuza.nl, bruessel-ov@bmeia.gv.at, bebrustpe@msz.gov.pl, reper@mne.pt, bru@rpro.eu, slomission.eu@gov.si, eu.brussels@mzv.sk, sanomat.eue@formin.fi, representationen.bryssel@gov.se Subject: Urgent: Chat Control Dear Representative, I am writing to express my deep concerns regarding Chat Control. As a citizen of the European Union, I am committed to safeguarding our fundamental rights and freedoms, particularly the right to privacy and the protection of personal data. The Chat Control Chat Control poses several significant risks: Invasion of Privacy: The proposed measures would lead to the mass surveillance of private communications, undermining the privacy of all EU citizens. This broad surveillance is disproportionate and infringes on our fundamental right to private correspondence. Security Risks: Weakening encryption to facilitate the monitoring of communications makes all users more vulnerable to cyberattacks. Encryption is essential for protecting sensitive data, including financial information, personal communications, and sensitive business data. Potential for Abuse: Granting authorities the power to monitor private communications without adequate checks and balances can lead to misuse and abuse of power. This undermines trust in both governmental and digital platforms. Stifling Innovation: Chat Control could have a chilling effect on tech innovation within the EU. Companies may be discouraged from developing new technologies or offering their services in the EU due to increased regulatory burdens and privacy concerns. I urge you to oppose Chat Control and advocate for solutions that protect children online without compromising the privacy and security of all citizens. Alternatives such as targeted interventions, improved digital literacy, and support for responsible online behavior are more effective and less intrusive ways to achieve these goals. Protecting the privacy and security of our digital communications is crucial for maintaining trust in the digital economy and upholding the values of the European Union. I hope you will consider these points and vote against Chat Control. Thank you for your attention to this critical matter. Yours sincerely, [your name/address/etc.] If you are outside the EU, change the first paragraph to: I am writing to express my deep concern regarding the proposed Chat Control legislation, despite not being a resident of the European Union. As someone who values privacy and security in digital communications, I believe this legislation has far-reaching implications that extend beyond the borders of the EU.

ekianjo 2y ago

at some point we need to bring back the idea of direct democracy on the table (online voting with blockchain or whatever) so that "representatives" are not needed anymore and cant be lobbied year on year against individual interests

waspight 2y ago

How will this affect companies in a technical aspect? Just no more e2e encryption available in the clients? Or will it be some kind of weird e2e with a backdoor (which is not how encryption works)…

bratwurst3000 2y ago

This shit is because of an organization that pushes their shitty products. Lobbysm in the EU is fucking out of control . https://netzpolitik.org/2022/dude-wheres-my-privacy-how-a-hollywood-star-lobbies-the-eu-for-more-surveillance/#netzpolitik-pw https://netzpolitik.org/2022/dude-wheres-my-privacy-how-a-ho...

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

[dupe] Incorrect link to match title, lots of recent discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40710993 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40710993

type0 2y ago

Does it mean that chat communications with steganography would also be outlawed in EU?