6 ms·

Same stuff for the Genoa, Italy bridge (Ponte Morandi). Everyone running on that would feel vibrations and "repairs" were just lipstick on a ugly face, until it

by m2f2 2y ago

Same stuff for the Genoa, Italy bridge (Ponte Morandi). Everyone running on that would feel vibrations and "repairs" were just lipstick on a ugly face, until it finally collapsed, with 43 dead. Surprisingly, or not so, no one was found guilty, not even the inspectors that didn't report the ongoing damages, just because "it would be too costly to rebuild it, and profits of the highway company (1) in charge of it would be zero". (1) the company name is Atlantia, fully owned at the time by the Benetton family, yes those of the sweater chain

rapsey 2y ago
Yet Italy spent years trying to put Adrian Newey in jail for building an f1 car involved in a fatal crash.
- pjc50 2y ago
  Not a well-connected Italian, obviously.
  - lelanthran 2y ago
    > Not a well-connected Italian, obviously. Obviously, since he isn't an Italian at all :-/
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  They also tried to put a bunch of earthquake scientists in jail for not predicting an earthquake.
  - naasking 2y ago
    No, they were jailed because they reassured the population that there was no risk of earthquake, when there absolutely was. That's very different.
    - DangitBobby 2y ago
      Still ridiculous, though. Do doctors in Italy go to jail for giving false negative cancer diagnoses? Can I sue the weather man when I get struck by lightning when they said there's no chance of rain? Maybe next time the public should interpret the seismographs themselves. Edit: It was eventually overturned [1]. Still, a shocking indictment of the court system. 1. https://www.theverge.com/2014/11/11/7193391/italy-judges-clear-geologists-manslaughter-laquila-earthquake-fear https://www.theverge.com/2014/11/11/7193391/italy-judges-cle...
      - stefantalpalaru 2y ago
        [dead]
      - naasking 2y ago
        > Still ridiculous, though. Do doctors in Italy go to jail for giving false negative cancer diagnoses? If there were strong indications of cancer and a doctor blatantly ignored it? An argument could be made that's negligence causing death. Clearly some degree of negligence is absolutely criminal when people's lives are on the line. Maybe you don't agree where that line was drawn in this specific case, but that's not an argument that no such line exists.
        DangitBobby 2y ago
        Negligence means everything would have been fine if everyone involved did their duty. So I gave cases where people did their duty, got it wrong, and weren't negligent. You can imagine scenarios where they were negligent because they didn't do their duties, but I can assure you they were not since these were my imagined scenarios. In the case of these scientists who did their duty to the best of their abilities, this wasn't negligence, full stop.
- buildbot 2y ago
  Yeah don’t get involved in the Italian “justice” system. For another example, the still ongoing prosecution of Amanda Knox.
  - stefantalpalaru 2y ago
    [dead]
_glass 2y ago
There is a really good paper with a simulation. https://gerardjoreilly.github.io/files/Journal/J6-2019_Calvi%20et%20al._Once%20upon%20a%20Time%20in%20Italy%20The%20Tale%20of%20the%20Morandi%20Bridge.pdf https://gerardjoreilly.github.io/files/Journal/J6-2019_Calvi...
zeristor 2y ago
As the video states this was flagged by inspections 14 times over 7 years or so. There's even inspection reports of one of the cross supports rusted through and disconnected, a cable taking some of the strain. At the very least the bridge should have just been closed, as unsafe.
- lostlogin 2y ago
  > As the video states this was flagged by inspections 14 times over 7 years or so. And the article starts by stating that the collapse was ‘without warning.’
  - nkrisc 2y ago
    I take that to mean there were no signs of imminent collapse, just sudden failure.
  - Gare 2y ago
    Warning in this context means something obvious to the unsuspecting user that collapse is imminent. Like a building creaking or buckling minutes or hours before finally giving way.
  - LegitShady 2y ago
    In engineering terms thats a mode of collapse, thing, not about people actually warning. When we do design, we're generally designing things so that if it fails it does so in a way that doesn't suddenly all collapse at once, but first deforms for a while so people can get away.
bboygravity 2y ago
Vibrations on a bridge are not normal? I'm asking because I've been in standstil traffic (in my car) on the Lisbon "golden gate" type bridge and that thing was freaking bouncing up and down from traffic on other lanes.
- dscottboggs 2y ago
  Bridges do move some normally, yes. It may depend on the type of bridge though? Certainly suspension bridges do.
  - tiagod 2y ago
    It's a suspension bridge. And a solid one :) Takes 6 lanes of traffic and whole trains on the bottom.
    - throwaway211 2y ago
      Trains cross bridges easily as they're either balanced with each half on each side, or half on and half on ground. And other time's just between these stable points. Furthermore, trains run on tracks which reduces chance of turning acceleration.
      - bobthepanda 2y ago
        Yes and no. Railways work well in the center of bridges. One bridge that violates this principle is the Manhattan Bridge; it was built before we had fancy engineering simulations or much experience with railway suspension bridges at all, and so the lower deck is a pair of railway tracks on either side of a roadway. This unusual design is very stressful on the bridge and has resulted in expensive rehabilitation programs.
      - buildbot 2y ago
        Unless it’s a floating bridge…
        2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
tim333 2y ago
I'm not sure you can diagnose it much from feeling vibrations if running. As an aside I don't remember it being open to pedestrians - I used to drive it occasionally. More to the point a proper study a year before the collapse with endoscopes showed the cables were pretty rusted and dangerous https://www.lastampa.it/esteri/la-stampa-in-english/2018/08/17/news/ignored-university-reports-about-morandi-bridge-deformed-pylons-and-oxidized-cables-1.34039115/ https://www.lastampa.it/esteri/la-stampa-in-english/2018/08/... The company managing it had tendered to get repairs done but they hadn't started by the time of the collapse.

by m2f2 2y ago

rapsey 2y ago

Yet Italy spent years trying to put Adrian Newey in jail for building an f1 car involved in a fatal crash.

pjc50 2y ago
Not a well-connected Italian, obviously.
- lelanthran 2y ago
  > Not a well-connected Italian, obviously. Obviously, since he isn't an Italian at all :-/
shiroiushi 2y ago
They also tried to put a bunch of earthquake scientists in jail for not predicting an earthquake.
- naasking 2y ago
  No, they were jailed because they reassured the population that there was no risk of earthquake, when there absolutely was. That's very different.
  - DangitBobby 2y ago
    Still ridiculous, though. Do doctors in Italy go to jail for giving false negative cancer diagnoses? Can I sue the weather man when I get struck by lightning when they said there's no chance of rain? Maybe next time the public should interpret the seismographs themselves. Edit: It was eventually overturned [1]. Still, a shocking indictment of the court system. 1. https://www.theverge.com/2014/11/11/7193391/italy-judges-clear-geologists-manslaughter-laquila-earthquake-fear https://www.theverge.com/2014/11/11/7193391/italy-judges-cle...
    - stefantalpalaru 2y ago
      [dead]
    - naasking 2y ago
      > Still ridiculous, though. Do doctors in Italy go to jail for giving false negative cancer diagnoses? If there were strong indications of cancer and a doctor blatantly ignored it? An argument could be made that's negligence causing death. Clearly some degree of negligence is absolutely criminal when people's lives are on the line. Maybe you don't agree where that line was drawn in this specific case, but that's not an argument that no such line exists.
      - DangitBobby 2y ago
        Negligence means everything would have been fine if everyone involved did their duty. So I gave cases where people did their duty, got it wrong, and weren't negligent. You can imagine scenarios where they were negligent because they didn't do their duties, but I can assure you they were not since these were my imagined scenarios. In the case of these scientists who did their duty to the best of their abilities, this wasn't negligence, full stop.
buildbot 2y ago
Yeah don’t get involved in the Italian “justice” system. For another example, the still ongoing prosecution of Amanda Knox.
- stefantalpalaru 2y ago
  [dead]

_glass 2y ago

There is a really good paper with a simulation. https://gerardjoreilly.github.io/files/Journal/J6-2019_Calvi%20et%20al._Once%20upon%20a%20Time%20in%20Italy%20The%20Tale%20of%20the%20Morandi%20Bridge.pdf https://gerardjoreilly.github.io/files/Journal/J6-2019_Calvi...

zeristor 2y ago

As the video states this was flagged by inspections 14 times over 7 years or so. There's even inspection reports of one of the cross supports rusted through and disconnected, a cable taking some of the strain. At the very least the bridge should have just been closed, as unsafe.

lostlogin 2y ago
> As the video states this was flagged by inspections 14 times over 7 years or so. And the article starts by stating that the collapse was ‘without warning.’
- nkrisc 2y ago
  I take that to mean there were no signs of imminent collapse, just sudden failure.
- Gare 2y ago
  Warning in this context means something obvious to the unsuspecting user that collapse is imminent. Like a building creaking or buckling minutes or hours before finally giving way.
- LegitShady 2y ago
  In engineering terms thats a mode of collapse, thing, not about people actually warning. When we do design, we're generally designing things so that if it fails it does so in a way that doesn't suddenly all collapse at once, but first deforms for a while so people can get away.

bboygravity 2y ago

Vibrations on a bridge are not normal? I'm asking because I've been in standstil traffic (in my car) on the Lisbon "golden gate" type bridge and that thing was freaking bouncing up and down from traffic on other lanes.

dscottboggs 2y ago
Bridges do move some normally, yes. It may depend on the type of bridge though? Certainly suspension bridges do.
- tiagod 2y ago
  It's a suspension bridge. And a solid one :) Takes 6 lanes of traffic and whole trains on the bottom.
  - throwaway211 2y ago
    Trains cross bridges easily as they're either balanced with each half on each side, or half on and half on ground. And other time's just between these stable points. Furthermore, trains run on tracks which reduces chance of turning acceleration.
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      Yes and no. Railways work well in the center of bridges. One bridge that violates this principle is the Manhattan Bridge; it was built before we had fancy engineering simulations or much experience with railway suspension bridges at all, and so the lower deck is a pair of railway tracks on either side of a roadway. This unusual design is very stressful on the bridge and has resulted in expensive rehabilitation programs.
    - buildbot 2y ago
      Unless it’s a floating bridge…
      - 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

tim333 2y ago

I'm not sure you can diagnose it much from feeling vibrations if running. As an aside I don't remember it being open to pedestrians - I used to drive it occasionally. More to the point a proper study a year before the collapse with endoscopes showed the cables were pretty rusted and dangerous https://www.lastampa.it/esteri/la-stampa-in-english/2018/08/17/news/ignored-university-reports-about-morandi-bridge-deformed-pylons-and-oxidized-cables-1.34039115/ https://www.lastampa.it/esteri/la-stampa-in-english/2018/08/... The company managing it had tendered to get repairs done but they hadn't started by the time of the collapse.