Not to diminish the groundbreaking originality KidPix (1989), but rather to highlight something from a few years later in the same vein that it might have inspi

Not to diminish the groundbreaking originality KidPix (1989), but rather to highlight something from a few years later in the same vein that it might have inspired, I also love the Thinkin' Things series from Edmark (1993): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinkin%27_Things https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinkin%27_Things >Thinkin' Things is a series of educational video games by the Edmark Corporation and released for Windows and Mac in the 1990s. Entries in the series include Thinkin' Things Collection 1 (Formerly Thinkin Things) (1993), Thinkin' Things Collection 2 (1994), Thinkin' Things Collection 3 (1995), the adventure game Thinkin' Things: Sky Island Mysteries (1998), Thinkin’ Things Galactic Brain Benders (1999), Thinkin' Things: All Around Frippletown (1999) and Thinkin' Things: Toony the Loon's Lagoon (1999). >The Thinkin' Things series allows players to experiment and explore with interactive objects in different ways and methods throughout the games. This can be in the form of playing with shapes, patterns, motions, sound effects and music tunes. Every game has its own preset designs and demonstrations to give the player an idea of how the game works before the player can customize a design of their own. Some games also permit the player to record their own sounds with a microphone. History of KidPix is interesting too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kid_Pix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kid_Pix Thinkin' Things Collection 1 Gameplay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rszh-Pq-mpw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rszh-Pq-mpw Especially the mesmerizing bouncing balls: https://youtu.be/Rszh-Pq-mpw?t=629 https://youtu.be/Rszh-Pq-mpw?t=629 Thinkin' Things Collection 2 Gameplay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Sh5pxLSlA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Sh5pxLSlA Thinkin' Things Collection 3 Gameplay: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCFNUc10Vu8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCFNUc10Vu8 Alan Kay also loves Thinkin' Things (as well as Warren Robinett's "Rocky's Boots" and "Robot Odyssey", the same guy who made Atari Adventure), and cited one of its levels, a football halftime parade programming system, as a precursor to blocks-based visual programming: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17423040 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17423040 DonHopkins on June 29, 2018 | parent | context | favorite | on: Classic 1984 video game Robot Odyssey available on... From: Alan Kay Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:55:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Just curious ... To: Samuel Klein, Don Hopkins, Chris Trottier, John Gilmore Hi SJ -- Robot Odyssey is another game that would benefit from having a clean separation between the graphical/physical modeling simulation and the behavioral parts (both the games levels and the robot programming could be independently separated out) -- this would make a great target for those who would like to try their hand at game play and at robot behavioral programming systems. This is a long undropped shoe for me. When I was the CS at Atari in 82-84, it was one of our goals to make a number of the very best games into frameworks for end-user (especially children's) creativity. Alas, Atari had quite a down turn towards the end of 83 ... We did get "the Aquarium" idea from Ann Marion to morph into the Vivarium project at Apple ... And some of the results there helped with the later Etoys design. Cheers, Alan ---- From: Alan Kay Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:57:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Just curious ... To: Samuel Klein, Don Hopkins, Chris Trottier, John Gilmore Thanks SJ -- We are benefiting here from Don Hopkins' generosity (and of the original designers and owners of these games). The basic notion is that there are many games that, if modularized with nice separable interfaces, would be great environments for exploring various kinds of "learning by doing". For example, there is a nice separation between the "rules/dynamics" of a games world and the "strategies/actions" of the characters. There could be a third separation to break out the graphics and sound routines as a media environment. For example, in SimCity, the first and most useful breakout for children would be to allow various UIs to be made that would let children find out about and try experiments with the "city dynamics rules". It's not clear what the best forms for this would be, so it would be great to have a variety of different designers supply modules that would try to bridge the gaps to the child users. This could work even for pretty young children (we helped the Open Magnet School set up Doreen Nelson's "City Building" curriculum in the third grade of the school and this was very successful -- a child controlled SimCity would have been wonderful to have). Maybe this separation could be set up via the D-bus so that separate processes written in any language the authors choose could be used. This would open this game up to different experiments by different researchers to explore different kinds of UIs and strategy languages for various ages of children. I think this would be really cool! We would all learn a lot from this and the children would benefit greatly. A trickier deal would be the world dynamics (I'm just guessing here, but Don would know). This is one of the really great things about SimCity -- it can really accommodate lots of different changes and stitch things together to make a pretty decent simulation without too many seams showing. (Given the machines this game originally ran on, many of the heuristics are likely to be a little patchy. Don has indicated as much.) I think doing a great world dynamics engine for games like SimCity would be really wonderful -- and could even be a thesis project or two. Don has talked about doing the separations so that many new games can be made in addition to the variations. Similarly, Robot Odyssey (one of the best games concepts ever) was marred by choosing a way to program the robots where the complexity of programming grew much faster than the functionality that could be given to the robots. This game was way ahead of its time. Again, the idea would be do make a game in which environment, levels of challenge, and how the robots are programmed would be broken out into separate processes that a variety of gamers and researchers could do experiments in language and UI. One of the most wonderful possibilities about this venture is that it will bring together very fluent designers from many worlds of computing (more worlds than usually combine to make a game) in the service of the children. We should really try to pull this off! Cheers, Alan pjungwir on June 29, 2018 | root | parent | next [–] Does anyone here remember ZZT? I loved building puzzles in that game with the scripting language. You didn't program to play, but you could make your own games and program the behavior of special objects. It's the closest realized example I can think of to what Alan described here. jasonjayr on June 29, 2018 | root | parent | next [–] I remember ZZT -- and the excitement when I found an archive of alternate worlds I could download from a BBS. Learning to program ZZT worlds was one of the first steps I took to programming. DonHopkins on June 29, 2018 | root | parent | prev | next [–] I'm not familiar with ZZT, but here's a reference to another game that inspired Alan Kay, called "Thinkin' Things", in a discussion about the Snap! visual programming language! https://snap.berkeley.edu https://snap.berkeley.edu ---- From: Alan Kay Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 07:49:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Blocky + Micropolis = Blockropolis! ;) Yes, all of these "blocks" editors sprouted from the original one I designed for Etoys* more than 20 years ago now -- most of the followup was by way of Jens Moenig -- who did SNAP. You can see Etoys demoed on the OLPC in my 2007 TED talk. I'd advise coming up with a special kid's oriented language for your SimCity/Metropolis system and then render it in "blocks". Cheers Alan ------------- * Two precursors for DnD programming were in my grad student's -- Mike Travers -- MIT thesis (not quite the same idea), and in the "Thinking Things" parade programming system (again, just individual symbol blocks rather than expressions). ---- From: Don Hopkins Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 00:43:56 +0200 Subject: Re: Blocky + Micropolis = Blockropolis! ;) I love fondly remember and love Thinkin’ Things 1, but I never saw the subsequent versions! But there’s a great demo on youtube! https://youtu.be/gCFNUc10Vu8?t=24m58s https://youtu.be/gCFNUc10Vu8?t=24m58s That would be a great way to program SimCity builder “agents” like the bulldozer and road layer, as well as agents like PacMan who know how to follow roads and eat traffic! I am trying to get my head around Snap by playing around with it and watching Jens’s youtube videos, and it’s dawning on me that that it’s full blown undiluted Scheme with continuations and visual macros plus the best ideas of Squeak! The concept of putting a “ring” around blocks to make them a first class function, and being able to define your own custom blocks that take bodies of block code as parameters like real Lisp macros is brilliant! That is what I’ve been dreaming about and wondering how to do for so long! Looks like he nailed it! ;) Here’s something I found that you wrote about tile programming six years ago. -Don Squeak-dev: http://squeak-dev.squeakfoundation.narkive.com/7ZN0H3vt/etoys-alice-and-tile-programming http://squeak-dev.squeakfoundation.narkive.com/7ZN0H3vt/etoy... Etoys, Alice and tile programming ajbn at cin.ufpe.br () 6 years ago Folks, I have been trying the new version of Alice <www.alice.org>. It also uses tile programming like Etoys. Just for curiosity, does anyone know the history of Tile Programming? TIA, Antonio Barros PhD Student Informatics Center Federal University of Pernambuco Brazil Alan Kay 6 years ago This particular strand starting with one of the projects I saw in the CDROM "Thinking Things" (I think it was the 3rd in the set). This project was basically about being able to march around a football field and the multiple marchers were controlled by a very simple tile based programming system. Also, a grad student from a number of years ago, Mike Travers, did a really excellent thesis at MIT about enduser programming of autonomous agents -- the system was called AGAR -- and many of these ideas were used in the Vivarium project at Apple 15 years ago. The thesis version of AGAR used DnD tiles to make programs in Mike's very powerful system. The etoys originated as a design I did to make a nice constructive environment for the internet -- the Disney Family.com site -- in which small projects could make by parents and kids working together. SqC made the etoys ideas work, and Kim Rose and teacher BJ Conn decided to see how they would work in a classroom. I thought the etoys lacked too many features to be really good in a classroom, but I was wrong. The small number of features and the ease of use turned out to be real virtues. We've been friends with Randy Pausch for a long time and have had a number of outstanding interns from his group at CMU over the years. For example, Jeff Pierce (now a prof at GaTech) did SqueakAlice working with Andreas Raab to tie it to Andreas' Balloon3D. Randy's group got interested in the etoys tile scripting and did a very nice variant (it's rather different from etoys, and maybe better). Cheers, Alan Mike Travers Portfolio: AGAR Ant World: https://hyperphor.com/portfolio/ant-world-illo.gif https://hyperphor.com/portfolio/ant-world-illo.gif Ant Agent Graph: https://hyperphor.com/portfolio/agent-graph-illo.gif https://hyperphor.com/portfolio/agent-graph-illo.gif Brainworks: https://hyperphor.com/portfolio/brainworks.jpg https://hyperphor.com/portfolio/brainworks.jpg Agar: An Animal Construction Kid (Mike Travers' thesis, supervised by Marvin Minsky): https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/78088 https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/78088 https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/78088/20084240-MIT.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/78088/2008424...