4 ms·

> Where’s our “100x FAFO laws”? Prohibited by 8th Amendment's ban on excessive fines.

schneems 2y ago
99x then and call it a day. (J/k) If we (America) can find a way to send someone who shoplifted three golf clubs to prison for 25 years to life and have it not be “cruel and unusual punishments” we are certainly clever enough to find a way to charge companies who view fines as “the cost of doing business” enough so they will at least thing twice about it and have it not be “excessive”.
- nielsbot 2y ago
  Jail time is the answer (instead of fines only).
hwillis 2y ago
1. where's the case law that makes it apply to corporations? 2. how is 100x the crime excessive, but $150,000 per pirated song isn't? That's a lot more than 100x the cost of a song.
- smugma 2y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_Unit... Waters-Pierce Oil Co. v. Texas, 212 U.S. 86 (1909)
  - zeroonetwothree 2y ago
    > Where a state antitrust law fixed penalties at $5,000 a day, and, after the verdict is guilty for over 300 days, a defendant corporation was fined over $1,600,000, this Court will not hold that the fine is so excessive as to amount to a deprivation of property without due process of law where it appears that the business was extensive and profitable during the period of violation and that the corporation has over $40,000,000 of assets and has declared dividends amounting to several hundred percent Seems like it would be acceptable to fine Amazon 100x more then
- Aloisius 2y ago
  The $150K/song isn't a government fine, but rather statutory damages awarded to the plaintiff (the copyright holder), so it isn't limited by the prohibition on Excessive Fines.
  - q1w2 2y ago
    It was also never awarded - it's a made-up number.
nobodyandproud 2y ago
That’s not a compelling argument. You have to justify that.
smugma 2y ago
In case anyone doesn’t want to look up said amendment, here is its text in full: “Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.“
- cj 2y ago
  A fine is meant to discourage a behavior. A fine isn't excessive unless (and until) it -effectively- discourages the wrongful behavior. Or at least that’s what my argument would be in court.
  - latency-guy2 2y ago
    Test your theory in your new profession as lawyer, or judge if that's your prerogative, sometime soon in court. Personally, if I was in power I would disbar you immediately and pray that you never offer legal advice again.
    - cj 2y ago
      No wonder half the comments in your comment history are downvoted! Instead of attacking me, why don't you share some sources that prove my thinking wrong?
      - latency-guy2 2y ago
        [flagged]
        cj 2y ago
        The reason I love HN is the constructive intelligent debate. Your comments aren’t contributing to that. It’s not about being right or wrong. Also not about “having an audience”. Legitimately just want intellectual conversation and debate. I wish everyone would contribute to the community in that way.
        2y ago
TulliusCicero 2y ago
What's excessive here? Fines have to serve as a deterrent to be a useful punishment, and if corporations aren't being deterred then clearly the fines aren't high enough yet.

99x then and call it a day. (J/k) If we (America) can find a way to send someone who shoplifted three golf clubs to prison for 25 years to life and have it not be “cruel and unusual punishments” we are certainly clever enough to find a way to charge companies who view fines as “the cost of doing business” enough so they will at least thing twice about it and have it not be “excessive”.

nielsbot 2y ago
Jail time is the answer (instead of fines only).

hwillis 2y ago

1. where's the case law that makes it apply to corporations? 2. how is 100x the crime excessive, but $150,000 per pirated song isn't? That's a lot more than 100x the cost of a song.

smugma 2y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighth_Amendment_to_the_Unit... Waters-Pierce Oil Co. v. Texas, 212 U.S. 86 (1909)
- zeroonetwothree 2y ago
  > Where a state antitrust law fixed penalties at $5,000 a day, and, after the verdict is guilty for over 300 days, a defendant corporation was fined over $1,600,000, this Court will not hold that the fine is so excessive as to amount to a deprivation of property without due process of law where it appears that the business was extensive and profitable during the period of violation and that the corporation has over $40,000,000 of assets and has declared dividends amounting to several hundred percent Seems like it would be acceptable to fine Amazon 100x more then
Aloisius 2y ago
The $150K/song isn't a government fine, but rather statutory damages awarded to the plaintiff (the copyright holder), so it isn't limited by the prohibition on Excessive Fines.
- q1w2 2y ago
  It was also never awarded - it's a made-up number.

nobodyandproud 2y ago

That’s not a compelling argument. You have to justify that.

smugma 2y ago

In case anyone doesn’t want to look up said amendment, here is its text in full: “Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.“

cj 2y ago
A fine is meant to discourage a behavior. A fine isn't excessive unless (and until) it -effectively- discourages the wrongful behavior. Or at least that’s what my argument would be in court.
- latency-guy2 2y ago
  Test your theory in your new profession as lawyer, or judge if that's your prerogative, sometime soon in court. Personally, if I was in power I would disbar you immediately and pray that you never offer legal advice again.
  - cj 2y ago
    No wonder half the comments in your comment history are downvoted! Instead of attacking me, why don't you share some sources that prove my thinking wrong?
    - latency-guy2 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - cj 2y ago
        The reason I love HN is the constructive intelligent debate. Your comments aren’t contributing to that. It’s not about being right or wrong. Also not about “having an audience”. Legitimately just want intellectual conversation and debate. I wish everyone would contribute to the community in that way.
        2y ago

TulliusCicero 2y ago

What's excessive here? Fines have to serve as a deterrent to be a useful punishment, and if corporations aren't being deterred then clearly the fines aren't high enough yet.