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Yeah. They're everywhere around me (Greater Boston), but we really do need more housing in this country. These allow denser construction, without needing to bui

by SamBam 2y ago

Yeah. They're everywhere around me (Greater Boston), but we really do need more housing in this country. These allow denser construction, without needing to build skyscrapers. One of the issues, though not directly related to 5-over-1, is the inability (that I've seen) of cities to construct neighborhoods. Most places where these are going up are not "neighborhoods," even in places were urban neighborhoods are very natural, like Greater Boston. Instead, there is sometimes some attempt at a retail space on the bottom of these buildings, but the streets are too wide, not walkable enough, and the retail opportunities are not designed for corner shops/bodegas/other cheap places that help create a neighborhood. I don't know how to create a neighborhood from whole cloth, but somebody has been thinking about it, I'm sure, and I wish cities would try to learn from their lessons.

TulliusCicero 2y ago
It's always possible to go back and fix streets. Amsterdam used to be a car-dominated hellscape not totally dissimilar from American cities, it just got to be more walk and bike-friendly through heavy street/road renovations over the decades. > but the streets are too wide, not walkable enough Right, but this is fixable. You can always go and reduce the car/parking lane space and make the sidewalk wider and/or add a bike lane.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  > Amsterdam used to be a car-dominated hellscape not totally dissimilar from American cities When was this?
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    In the post-WW2 era up to the 70's. The 70's are when there was a big movement that initiated the social change back to being more walk/bike-friendly (though it took decades to get Dutch cities to where they are now): https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Transportation_Planning_Casebook/Stop_de_kindermoord https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Transportation_Planning_Casebo... You can find pics of what it was like in their cities. Not exactly the same as US ones necessarily, but close. There's a couple pics here: https://www.distilled.earth/p/how-the-netherlands-built-a-biking https://www.distilled.earth/p/how-the-netherlands-built-a-bi...
- SamBam 2y ago
  Presumably if Amsterdam was a "car-dominated hellscape" it was because cars were forcing themselves into a city that was designed for people and carts. Then they pushed back against the cars and returned it to being a people-centric city. This is the opposite of a city that's designed for cars, and trying to turn it into a people city. Wide streets can get wide sidewalks planted with pretty trees, but that doesn't necessarily turn it into a "neighborhood" the way you might see in a city like Amsterdam.
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    > Presumably if Amsterdam was a "car-dominated hellscape" it was because cars were forcing themselves into a city that was designed for people and carts. Your presumption is incorrect. I mean, originally it wasn't designed for cars obviously, but eventually the streets were redesigned around cars, which caused it to become a car-dominated hellscape, yes. You can find a few transition photos here: https://exploring-and-observing-cities.org/2016/01/11/amsterdam-historic-images-depicting-the-transition-from-cars-to-bikes/ https://exploring-and-observing-cities.org/2016/01/11/amster... Compared to an average US city, it was probably still a bit more pedestrian-friendly even then, but nowhere close to as walk- and especially bike-friendly as it is now. > Wide streets can get wide sidewalks planted with pretty trees, but that doesn't necessarily turn it into a "neighborhood" the way you might see in a city like Amsterdam. Adding/having density and pedestrian- or bike-friendly design is exactly how you get neighborhoods like in Amsterdam.
    - SamBam 2y ago
      I'm sorry, but your photos depict exactly what I am talking about. Those streets that the cars are crowding down are narrow (to an American) with barely enough room for two lanes of traffic. Cars are parked with two wheels on the sidewalk. And even in the "hellscape" era, every door was a different storefront. The streets may have been "redesigned around cars," but the distance between the buildings remained the same. And the buildings were built for small-scale stores on the bottom. This is what makes it feel like a neighborhood. The conversion back to a pedestrian/bike heaven was natural, because the size of the streets was made for exactly that. Compare to a modern neighborhood built around 5-over-1s [1], [2]. The streets are 5x as wide -- often four lanes of traffic and two lanes of bike lanes. And the ground floor is often built for a single store, like a large clothing department store. There's no reason to walk down this street, except to get from point A to point B. Even if you decided to eliminate cars, the streets simply wouldn't make sense as a pedestrian area. They're too big, too exposed. It would feel like walking in an industrial zone. It's not strictly the way 5-over-1s are designed, it's the way the streets are designed, and the way commercial space is designed. 1. https://commonedge.org/in-praise-of-5-over-1-buildings/ https://commonedge.org/in-praise-of-5-over-1-buildings/ 2. https://commonedge.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/mid-rise-wood-frame-building-1-1000x625.jpg https://commonedge.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/mid-rise-w...
CrimsonCape 2y ago
I am involved on the design side and would personally not live in these. The rent is too high because it's calculated for the urban locale (typically) and the residents are too transient. How can you consider somewhere a "home" when it's a boring white plaster unit that you can't customize? How can you consider somewhere a "community" when its better described as "cells" not "homes"?
c5karl 2y ago
A lot of smaller cities (including the one I live in) are addressing this by designating "activity centers" where new, denser housing is incentivized and sought to be concentrated. Zoning is changed so that, as things like aging strip malls are replaced, a new street grid is laid down over old superblocks. There's only so much that planning and zoning can do (developers will only build and lenders will only lend for what's deemed profitable), and fully building out these neighborhoods will take decades. But lots of people are thinking about this and seeking ways to make it work. Municipalities have an incentive to get it right. Maintaining the tax base relies on attracting new residents, many of whom are seeking walkable urban(ish) neighborhoods.

by SamBam 2y ago

TulliusCicero 2y ago

It's always possible to go back and fix streets. Amsterdam used to be a car-dominated hellscape not totally dissimilar from American cities, it just got to be more walk and bike-friendly through heavy street/road renovations over the decades. > but the streets are too wide, not walkable enough Right, but this is fixable. You can always go and reduce the car/parking lane space and make the sidewalk wider and/or add a bike lane.

throwaway2037 2y ago
> Amsterdam used to be a car-dominated hellscape not totally dissimilar from American cities When was this?
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  In the post-WW2 era up to the 70's. The 70's are when there was a big movement that initiated the social change back to being more walk/bike-friendly (though it took decades to get Dutch cities to where they are now): https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Transportation_Planning_Casebook/Stop_de_kindermoord https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Transportation_Planning_Casebo... You can find pics of what it was like in their cities. Not exactly the same as US ones necessarily, but close. There's a couple pics here: https://www.distilled.earth/p/how-the-netherlands-built-a-biking https://www.distilled.earth/p/how-the-netherlands-built-a-bi...
SamBam 2y ago
Presumably if Amsterdam was a "car-dominated hellscape" it was because cars were forcing themselves into a city that was designed for people and carts. Then they pushed back against the cars and returned it to being a people-centric city. This is the opposite of a city that's designed for cars, and trying to turn it into a people city. Wide streets can get wide sidewalks planted with pretty trees, but that doesn't necessarily turn it into a "neighborhood" the way you might see in a city like Amsterdam.
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  > Presumably if Amsterdam was a "car-dominated hellscape" it was because cars were forcing themselves into a city that was designed for people and carts. Your presumption is incorrect. I mean, originally it wasn't designed for cars obviously, but eventually the streets were redesigned around cars, which caused it to become a car-dominated hellscape, yes. You can find a few transition photos here: https://exploring-and-observing-cities.org/2016/01/11/amsterdam-historic-images-depicting-the-transition-from-cars-to-bikes/ https://exploring-and-observing-cities.org/2016/01/11/amster... Compared to an average US city, it was probably still a bit more pedestrian-friendly even then, but nowhere close to as walk- and especially bike-friendly as it is now. > Wide streets can get wide sidewalks planted with pretty trees, but that doesn't necessarily turn it into a "neighborhood" the way you might see in a city like Amsterdam. Adding/having density and pedestrian- or bike-friendly design is exactly how you get neighborhoods like in Amsterdam.
  - SamBam 2y ago
    I'm sorry, but your photos depict exactly what I am talking about. Those streets that the cars are crowding down are narrow (to an American) with barely enough room for two lanes of traffic. Cars are parked with two wheels on the sidewalk. And even in the "hellscape" era, every door was a different storefront. The streets may have been "redesigned around cars," but the distance between the buildings remained the same. And the buildings were built for small-scale stores on the bottom. This is what makes it feel like a neighborhood. The conversion back to a pedestrian/bike heaven was natural, because the size of the streets was made for exactly that. Compare to a modern neighborhood built around 5-over-1s [1], [2]. The streets are 5x as wide -- often four lanes of traffic and two lanes of bike lanes. And the ground floor is often built for a single store, like a large clothing department store. There's no reason to walk down this street, except to get from point A to point B. Even if you decided to eliminate cars, the streets simply wouldn't make sense as a pedestrian area. They're too big, too exposed. It would feel like walking in an industrial zone. It's not strictly the way 5-over-1s are designed, it's the way the streets are designed, and the way commercial space is designed. 1. https://commonedge.org/in-praise-of-5-over-1-buildings/ https://commonedge.org/in-praise-of-5-over-1-buildings/ 2. https://commonedge.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/mid-rise-wood-frame-building-1-1000x625.jpg https://commonedge.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/mid-rise-w...

CrimsonCape 2y ago

I am involved on the design side and would personally not live in these. The rent is too high because it's calculated for the urban locale (typically) and the residents are too transient. How can you consider somewhere a "home" when it's a boring white plaster unit that you can't customize? How can you consider somewhere a "community" when its better described as "cells" not "homes"?

c5karl 2y ago

A lot of smaller cities (including the one I live in) are addressing this by designating "activity centers" where new, denser housing is incentivized and sought to be concentrated. Zoning is changed so that, as things like aging strip malls are replaced, a new street grid is laid down over old superblocks. There's only so much that planning and zoning can do (developers will only build and lenders will only lend for what's deemed profitable), and fully building out these neighborhoods will take decades. But lots of people are thinking about this and seeking ways to make it work. Municipalities have an incentive to get it right. Maintaining the tax base relies on attracting new residents, many of whom are seeking walkable urban(ish) neighborhoods.