5 ms·

I know at least one of ideas is that the retail would be relevant to the inhabitants of the top 5 floors. Has anyone seen that work well in action? Or are these

I know at least one of ideas is that the retail would be relevant to the inhabitants of the top 5 floors. Has anyone seen that work well in action? Or are these just houses on random strip malls. I don't like the idea of stores I don't care about inviting increased traffic around my house, but i would happily have increased traffic if it meant at least some stores I care about are just downstairs.

TulliusCicero 2y ago
> Has anyone seen that work well in action? Yes, it works pretty much anywhere if the retail in question is the relatively useful/high traffic sort (e.g. grocery stores, bakeries, coffee shops, restaurants/cafes, etc). And it doesn't have to just serve the people of that exact building, if there are a bunch of other 5-over-1's or similar in the immediate area. Honestly, this sounds like a bit of a stereotypical American question: "Can <thing that the rest of the world already does> actually work at all?" Edit: I should add that of course there can be other variables at play. For example, if the general street design of the area is more pedestrian friendly, that's helpful to this style of zoning/building, and if the street design is hostile to pedestrians, then these things won't work quite as well.
- mech422 2y ago
  I used to live over a bodega and laundrymat in NYC.. it was relatively cheap AND convenient :-)
cpitman 2y ago
It works really well. During the pandemic, everything I needed was within a couple blocks of me. I went so long without needing to drive that my car actually had issues afterwards.
- febusravenga 2y ago
  Surprise, it's good for many things but bad for cars... intesting observation in times when many of us realize our environment is more friendly to cars than to people.
  - isametry 2y ago
    > but bad for cars Or in other words, it’s good against cars :)
gamepsys 2y ago
I think this works fantastic in Capitol Hill neighborhood in Seattle. The ground floor is filled with restaurants, cafes, bars, retailers that define the neighborhood as a cool part of town. There is enough public transportation, grocery stores, and other amenities that it creates a walkable community (a rarity in North America). The area has downsides, but it is doing well economically.
aeternum 2y ago
Unnecessary requirement, the store in your building might not be relevant to you but chances are another nearby will be. In order to make this work you really need to reduce the restrictions.
majormajor 2y ago
I see them over Trader Joe's, restaurants, small Targets, coffee shops, etc, all the time. All pretty generally relevant.
jseliger 2y ago
Has anyone seen that work well in action Yes. I live in a 4-over-2 and will go to stores that are relevant.
shcheklein 2y ago
Oh yeah. Check the Mission Bay in San Francisco. Everything is walkable and very relevant to my life. I never drive to a grocery store, day care, coffee (3 - 4 places with excellent espresso), kid activities (there a bunch of places - music, soccer field, etc). In fact the first 4-5 years, until we had 2 kids we even didn't own a car - there was no need in SF ... and we enjoyed it a lot. Now, with my second kid going to school (public) I have to drive (it's literally 1 mile). It has changed the whole schedule. That single drive! Annoys me as hell. It's hard to imagine how convenient it is when you don't have to drive anywhere, even school, day care, etc. This makes a huge difference.
- nomoreipg 2y ago
  Why don't you walk them to school
  - greenavocado 2y ago
    How dangerous is it to walk there with your child to get them to school
    - shcheklein 2y ago
      Not dangerous (except traffic that you have to cross a few times).
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    1 mile is a good amount of time to walk with a kid. A better angle would be biking the kid to school, but it's possible/probable that the route isn't good for bikes.
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      also in some places it is extremely normal for kids to travel unattended to school using mass transportation. in NYC, for example, this is probably one of the most common methods of getting to school.
pnw 2y ago
They tend to be expensive real estate, and the landlords prefer national corporate chains, so you see lots of banks, realtors, cell phones stores etc. I've read that this design isn't ideally suited to many retail establishments but the details escape me.
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  > They tend to be expensive real estate, and the landlords prefer national corporate chains, so you see lots of banks, realtors, cell phones stores etc. If you require the retail space, this is probably a non-issue, because there's only so many national corporate chains that will want to open a store in a given area; if you have a LOT of 5-over-1s in a neighborhood, there should be enough space left over for independent stores too.
  - smelendez 2y ago
    You'd think, but I've seen these stay vacant for years. Sometimes from the outside it looks like the developer is using the "retail" space as storage or a workshop. Sometimes they seem to attract high end medical and beauty/spa businesses. There's nothing wrong with the businesses individually, but a glut of them isn't useful for the neighborhood (nobody needs eight cosmetic dentists). And replacing a strip of walk-in businesses (groceries, cafes, hardware stores, affordable clothing shops) you use regularly with mostly appointment-based services businesses you use occasionally if at all isn't great.
    - TulliusCicero 2y ago
      I'm aware it can happen, but there are ways to deal with vacant storefront space too. For example, if an area is booming and it's just a matter of landlords "holding out", you could have higher property taxes for vacant storefronts.
      - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
        Leave a washing machine in it, costing $1,000 to use, and open your new laundromat for 1 minute a week
odiroot 2y ago
This sort of construction is quite common for new builds in Poland. Usually there's convenience stores, small restaurants/cafes, private medicine practices on the ground floor.
mc32 2y ago
I like the design. In theory it offers convenience. Go downstairs for a bite, haircut, whatever... The downside, when they're new, is the rent for the commercial floors is only affordable by mid to upper market merchants. 30 years hence, we could see "gentrification" where thin margin businesses can survive. Like, you can have a grocery store, but it'll be an expensive grocery store with higher mark-ups and fancier food. The coffee shop will be one with thoughtful art pieces and not recycled-trash-cum-art, etc.
itronitron 2y ago
Most cities in Europe are set up like this. People walk a few blocks for groceries, to the bakery/cafe, or a restaurant. Other common businesses are pharmacies, drug stores, clothing (separately fashion, thrift, tailor, seamstress, etc), book stores, appliance stores, hardware stores (like Ace not Home Depot), etc. Where it gets ugly is when the buildings get too big, either vertically or horizontally. I would argue that 5 over 1 is actually the sweet spot.
Micanthus 2y ago
I live in an area like this and it's great. Off the top of my head, within half a kilometer of my apartment there's: - 4 grocery stores, including a small turkish one - a café - 2 fast food places - a nail studio - 2 hair salons - a school - 3 bars (4 if you include an ice cream place that has bar nights in the winter sometimes) - a tailor - a smokeshop I'm sure more that I don't frequent. My building itself doesn't have a shop at the bottom, but most buildings around me do. The only necessities that I have to go further at all for are a pharmacy and a hardware store, and they're not far. I wouldn't say I live in the middle of the city either, kind of on the edge of the "high density" area. As in where I am there are only apartments and businesses but if you go 2 blocks further away from the city center there are also single-family homes. And they benefit from the amenities provided by us apartment-dwellers as well.

TulliusCicero 2y ago

> Has anyone seen that work well in action? Yes, it works pretty much anywhere if the retail in question is the relatively useful/high traffic sort (e.g. grocery stores, bakeries, coffee shops, restaurants/cafes, etc). And it doesn't have to just serve the people of that exact building, if there are a bunch of other 5-over-1's or similar in the immediate area. Honestly, this sounds like a bit of a stereotypical American question: "Can <thing that the rest of the world already does> actually work at all?" Edit: I should add that of course there can be other variables at play. For example, if the general street design of the area is more pedestrian friendly, that's helpful to this style of zoning/building, and if the street design is hostile to pedestrians, then these things won't work quite as well.

mech422 2y ago
I used to live over a bodega and laundrymat in NYC.. it was relatively cheap AND convenient :-)

cpitman 2y ago

It works really well. During the pandemic, everything I needed was within a couple blocks of me. I went so long without needing to drive that my car actually had issues afterwards.

febusravenga 2y ago
Surprise, it's good for many things but bad for cars... intesting observation in times when many of us realize our environment is more friendly to cars than to people.
- isametry 2y ago
  > but bad for cars Or in other words, it’s good against cars :)

gamepsys 2y ago

I think this works fantastic in Capitol Hill neighborhood in Seattle. The ground floor is filled with restaurants, cafes, bars, retailers that define the neighborhood as a cool part of town. There is enough public transportation, grocery stores, and other amenities that it creates a walkable community (a rarity in North America). The area has downsides, but it is doing well economically.

aeternum 2y ago

Unnecessary requirement, the store in your building might not be relevant to you but chances are another nearby will be. In order to make this work you really need to reduce the restrictions.

majormajor 2y ago

I see them over Trader Joe's, restaurants, small Targets, coffee shops, etc, all the time. All pretty generally relevant.

jseliger 2y ago

Has anyone seen that work well in action Yes. I live in a 4-over-2 and will go to stores that are relevant.

shcheklein 2y ago

Oh yeah. Check the Mission Bay in San Francisco. Everything is walkable and very relevant to my life. I never drive to a grocery store, day care, coffee (3 - 4 places with excellent espresso), kid activities (there a bunch of places - music, soccer field, etc). In fact the first 4-5 years, until we had 2 kids we even didn't own a car - there was no need in SF ... and we enjoyed it a lot. Now, with my second kid going to school (public) I have to drive (it's literally 1 mile). It has changed the whole schedule. That single drive! Annoys me as hell. It's hard to imagine how convenient it is when you don't have to drive anywhere, even school, day care, etc. This makes a huge difference.

nomoreipg 2y ago
Why don't you walk them to school
- greenavocado 2y ago
  How dangerous is it to walk there with your child to get them to school
  - shcheklein 2y ago
    Not dangerous (except traffic that you have to cross a few times).
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  1 mile is a good amount of time to walk with a kid. A better angle would be biking the kid to school, but it's possible/probable that the route isn't good for bikes.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    also in some places it is extremely normal for kids to travel unattended to school using mass transportation. in NYC, for example, this is probably one of the most common methods of getting to school.

pnw 2y ago

They tend to be expensive real estate, and the landlords prefer national corporate chains, so you see lots of banks, realtors, cell phones stores etc. I've read that this design isn't ideally suited to many retail establishments but the details escape me.

TulliusCicero 2y ago
> They tend to be expensive real estate, and the landlords prefer national corporate chains, so you see lots of banks, realtors, cell phones stores etc. If you require the retail space, this is probably a non-issue, because there's only so many national corporate chains that will want to open a store in a given area; if you have a LOT of 5-over-1s in a neighborhood, there should be enough space left over for independent stores too.
- smelendez 2y ago
  You'd think, but I've seen these stay vacant for years. Sometimes from the outside it looks like the developer is using the "retail" space as storage or a workshop. Sometimes they seem to attract high end medical and beauty/spa businesses. There's nothing wrong with the businesses individually, but a glut of them isn't useful for the neighborhood (nobody needs eight cosmetic dentists). And replacing a strip of walk-in businesses (groceries, cafes, hardware stores, affordable clothing shops) you use regularly with mostly appointment-based services businesses you use occasionally if at all isn't great.
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    I'm aware it can happen, but there are ways to deal with vacant storefront space too. For example, if an area is booming and it's just a matter of landlords "holding out", you could have higher property taxes for vacant storefronts.
    - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
      Leave a washing machine in it, costing $1,000 to use, and open your new laundromat for 1 minute a week

odiroot 2y ago

This sort of construction is quite common for new builds in Poland. Usually there's convenience stores, small restaurants/cafes, private medicine practices on the ground floor.

mc32 2y ago

I like the design. In theory it offers convenience. Go downstairs for a bite, haircut, whatever... The downside, when they're new, is the rent for the commercial floors is only affordable by mid to upper market merchants. 30 years hence, we could see "gentrification" where thin margin businesses can survive. Like, you can have a grocery store, but it'll be an expensive grocery store with higher mark-ups and fancier food. The coffee shop will be one with thoughtful art pieces and not recycled-trash-cum-art, etc.

itronitron 2y ago

Most cities in Europe are set up like this. People walk a few blocks for groceries, to the bakery/cafe, or a restaurant. Other common businesses are pharmacies, drug stores, clothing (separately fashion, thrift, tailor, seamstress, etc), book stores, appliance stores, hardware stores (like Ace not Home Depot), etc. Where it gets ugly is when the buildings get too big, either vertically or horizontally. I would argue that 5 over 1 is actually the sweet spot.

Micanthus 2y ago

I live in an area like this and it's great. Off the top of my head, within half a kilometer of my apartment there's: - 4 grocery stores, including a small turkish one - a café - 2 fast food places - a nail studio - 2 hair salons - a school - 3 bars (4 if you include an ice cream place that has bar nights in the winter sometimes) - a tailor - a smokeshop I'm sure more that I don't frequent. My building itself doesn't have a shop at the bottom, but most buildings around me do. The only necessities that I have to go further at all for are a pharmacy and a hardware store, and they're not far. I wouldn't say I live in the middle of the city either, kind of on the edge of the "high density" area. As in where I am there are only apartments and businesses but if you go 2 blocks further away from the city center there are also single-family homes. And they benefit from the amenities provided by us apartment-dwellers as well.