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> The made breaking changes in the ABI... They bumped the major number. That's fair play. There has always been a lot of slouching wrt versions in python. T

> The made breaking changes in the ABI... They bumped the major number. That's fair play. There has always been a lot of slouching wrt versions in python. That's not numpy's fault. Too bad they're getting the black eye for it. They could have avoided it by making a new dependency name ("numpy2"), but that sets a shameful precedent, so I give them credit for not copping out.

rikthevik 2y ago
It's a tough situation. Once you have an installed base, your hands get tied. I miss the early days when I could rework the UI and UX of the product regularly. Now there is a lot of legwork to make sure we're not changing existing workflows (documented or undocumented). That said, I like that we're making money, so I can't complain too much. I viscerally understand how companies can get stuck and unable to change their products significantly because their installed base will revolt. It's a tough situation.
- topspin 2y ago
  It's a self inflicted situation by dependees. Tools in widespread use, JupyterLab for instance, has users tossing dependencies onto the pile, offering next to no guidance on dependency version control, as if expecting them to have to ponder such issues is unreasonable. Well, if that's how you're going to behave, foregoing entirely obvious and solved engineering problems, you get to glue all the pieces back together when reality asserts itself. I don't imagine for one minute numpy folks didn't know what this would look like, and they did it anyway. Good on them. Breaking changes are necessary. That's unqualified. Necessary. If you can't afford a big blowup in your work then manage your work.
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    One of the reasons I made pip-chill was to have a tool to make it easy to me to have a minimal set of non-versioned requirements for canary builds on the latest-and-greatest versions. When the canary breaks, you realise you have work to do.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  This is a symptom of cruft. Clean breaks are needed to keep software fresh. The Tree of Elegance needs to be refreshed with the blood of both users and programers. Or something like that.
  - llm_trw 2y ago
    Cruft is also known as stability. We'd not get very far is the Linux Kernel made breaking ABI changes every year.
gumby 2y ago
They made sure you’d get an error rather than subtle and confusing bugs. They deserve plenty of kudos for how they decided to move forward.

rikthevik 2y ago

It's a tough situation. Once you have an installed base, your hands get tied. I miss the early days when I could rework the UI and UX of the product regularly. Now there is a lot of legwork to make sure we're not changing existing workflows (documented or undocumented). That said, I like that we're making money, so I can't complain too much. I viscerally understand how companies can get stuck and unable to change their products significantly because their installed base will revolt. It's a tough situation.

topspin 2y ago
It's a self inflicted situation by dependees. Tools in widespread use, JupyterLab for instance, has users tossing dependencies onto the pile, offering next to no guidance on dependency version control, as if expecting them to have to ponder such issues is unreasonable. Well, if that's how you're going to behave, foregoing entirely obvious and solved engineering problems, you get to glue all the pieces back together when reality asserts itself. I don't imagine for one minute numpy folks didn't know what this would look like, and they did it anyway. Good on them. Breaking changes are necessary. That's unqualified. Necessary. If you can't afford a big blowup in your work then manage your work.
- rbanffy 2y ago
  One of the reasons I made pip-chill was to have a tool to make it easy to me to have a minimal set of non-versioned requirements for canary builds on the latest-and-greatest versions. When the canary breaks, you realise you have work to do.
rbanffy 2y ago
This is a symptom of cruft. Clean breaks are needed to keep software fresh. The Tree of Elegance needs to be refreshed with the blood of both users and programers. Or something like that.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  Cruft is also known as stability. We'd not get very far is the Linux Kernel made breaking ABI changes every year.

gumby 2y ago

They made sure you’d get an error rather than subtle and confusing bugs. They deserve plenty of kudos for how they decided to move forward.