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I was not talking about false equivalence about their economic status; I was talking about falsely equating or 'whatabout-ing' their human rights status. And i

by toss1 2y ago

I was not talking about false equivalence about their economic status; I was talking about falsely equating or 'whatabout-ing' their human rights status. And if you think that polls of life satisfaction are meaningful among a population who are forbidden to criticize their govt except in limited ways (e.g., local officials), I'd like to talk about some fantastic oceanfront land in Kansas... Economy? Of course people are happier to have a change from abject poverty, but it is entirely based on unfair export trade practices and highly leveraged investments both official and shadow-banking. At this point both are extremely fragile as the democracies start to catch on and the over-leverage starts to work against it. Even the massively over-inflated official growth numbers have tanked. On the economy, I'd choose to be in the USA over China, no hesitation. "Transforming entire continents"? You mean making extortionate loans to impoverished countries to build their own ports and extract resources? Again, that has limited runway as people figure out that it isn't such a good deal. And I notice that you entirely avoided the human rights citizen security issue. Yes, the US has corporate over-harvesting of data, and govt agencies can buy and/or demand access to the data. We also have court processes. Meanwhile, China has OFFICIALLY one party, a massive and highly intrusive surveillance and censorship apparatus second to none in the world, and mobile execution vans literally seizing and executing people on the street by the tens of thousand or more, but there are no public records. Again, no contest, USA is massively qualitatively and quantitatively better. Serious question, if you don't think so, why haven't you moved to China? I'm sure they'd welcome such an advocate.

deciplex 2y ago
> China has OFFICIALLY one party, a massive and highly intrusive surveillance and censorship apparatus second to none in the world Second to ours. > mobile execution vans literally seizing and executing people on the street by the tens of thousand or more Absolute nonsense.
- toss1 2y ago
  >>Absolute nonsense. Ah, I se you are one of those who chooses to chooses to ignore the facts of the world [0,1,2,3,4,5]. This is just the top results of a 0.1second search And I notice that you completely avoided my serious question: If it is so much better in China, why are you not moving there? [0] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/04/China-must-come-clean-about-capital-punishment/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/04/China-must-co... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China [3] https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/inside-chinese-death-van-petrified-32914359 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/inside-chinese-deat... [4] https://panpacificagency.com/news/china/02/19/mobile-death-vans-inside-chinas-brutal-execution-system/ https://panpacificagency.com/news/china/02/19/mobile-death-v... [5] https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/mobile-death-vans-inside-chinas-brutal-execution-system/news-story/4b920eced96dbb32245d6e10d4410cb0 https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/mobile-death-vans-inside-...
  - deciplex 2y ago
    > If it is so much better in China, why are you not moving there? I don't speak Chinese and I'm an American citizen. "If X is so great why don't you move to X?" is such a typical retort from reactionaries to any criticism of the status quo that it's literally a meme. I'm not surprised to find this on HN but I am surprised that you lack self-awareness to the extent that you're actually doubling down on it, here.
    - toss1 2y ago
      I'm not doubling down or using it as a retort. I wanted an actual answer to the question, particularly since you so adamantly claim that China is far for human rights than the USA. Your answer is that it is friction of change from where you are, which is fine, although a bit at odds with your stridency about how bad the USA is and how innocent China is. If you are right that China/CCP has already won, you should really consider getting motivated to overcome that friction and go there. Especially considering how most of the West is withdrawing from China, your skills and attitude will likely be quite welcome there. (Or, perhaps consider that your motivation levels are not aligned with the attitude you present because maybe your attitudes aren't quite aligned with reality?)
      - deciplex 2y ago
        I don't think you know what the fuck you're talking about. One power eclipsing another does not imply a mass migration, as you suggest. It can just be... one power eclipsing another. It doesn't mean everyone can or even should move there, and it certainly doesn't mean that reactionary dickheads pushing back against any criticism of the status quo have some ace in the hole gotcha argument they can apply to any and all situations, as you seem to think. Your line of reasoning here, again, is transparently copium. Quite the contrary, I will stay in the US because I anticipate that our loss of power and prestige vis a vis China will result in many structural changes as we are forced (often against cultural inertia) to embrace more advanced productive relations to have any hope of keeping up. I want to be here for that, thanks.

by toss1 2y ago

deciplex 2y ago

> China has OFFICIALLY one party, a massive and highly intrusive surveillance and censorship apparatus second to none in the world Second to ours. > mobile execution vans literally seizing and executing people on the street by the tens of thousand or more Absolute nonsense.

toss1 2y ago
>>Absolute nonsense. Ah, I se you are one of those who chooses to chooses to ignore the facts of the world [0,1,2,3,4,5]. This is just the top results of a 0.1second search And I notice that you completely avoided my serious question: If it is so much better in China, why are you not moving there? [0] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/04/China-must-come-clean-about-capital-punishment/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/04/China-must-co... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Execution_van [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China [3] https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/inside-chinese-death-van-petrified-32914359 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/inside-chinese-deat... [4] https://panpacificagency.com/news/china/02/19/mobile-death-vans-inside-chinas-brutal-execution-system/ https://panpacificagency.com/news/china/02/19/mobile-death-v... [5] https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/mobile-death-vans-inside-chinas-brutal-execution-system/news-story/4b920eced96dbb32245d6e10d4410cb0 https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/mobile-death-vans-inside-...
- deciplex 2y ago
  > If it is so much better in China, why are you not moving there? I don't speak Chinese and I'm an American citizen. "If X is so great why don't you move to X?" is such a typical retort from reactionaries to any criticism of the status quo that it's literally a meme. I'm not surprised to find this on HN but I am surprised that you lack self-awareness to the extent that you're actually doubling down on it, here.
  - toss1 2y ago
    I'm not doubling down or using it as a retort. I wanted an actual answer to the question, particularly since you so adamantly claim that China is far for human rights than the USA. Your answer is that it is friction of change from where you are, which is fine, although a bit at odds with your stridency about how bad the USA is and how innocent China is. If you are right that China/CCP has already won, you should really consider getting motivated to overcome that friction and go there. Especially considering how most of the West is withdrawing from China, your skills and attitude will likely be quite welcome there. (Or, perhaps consider that your motivation levels are not aligned with the attitude you present because maybe your attitudes aren't quite aligned with reality?)
    - deciplex 2y ago
      I don't think you know what the fuck you're talking about. One power eclipsing another does not imply a mass migration, as you suggest. It can just be... one power eclipsing another. It doesn't mean everyone can or even should move there, and it certainly doesn't mean that reactionary dickheads pushing back against any criticism of the status quo have some ace in the hole gotcha argument they can apply to any and all situations, as you seem to think. Your line of reasoning here, again, is transparently copium. Quite the contrary, I will stay in the US because I anticipate that our loss of power and prestige vis a vis China will result in many structural changes as we are forced (often against cultural inertia) to embrace more advanced productive relations to have any hope of keeping up. I want to be here for that, thanks.