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I'm a dedicated and long-time Emacs user but he's right. Not everybody that learns Python is looking to become a professional programmer, just leave them the f

I'm a dedicated and long-time Emacs user but he's right. Not everybody that learns Python is looking to become a professional programmer, just leave them the fuck alone and let them learn to code in their own way.

artursapek 14y ago
It's not about learning "in their own way," it's just about baby steps. Programmers tend to get enthusiastic and start giving enthusiastic advice, like "use Emacs!" I learned Javascript in shitty Aptana Studio and (thanks to Zed) Python in gedit. Now I use Vim for everything.
d0mine 14y ago
I don't see how gedit is simpler than emacs for a complete beginner: open an editor, start typing (letters, arrows, delete produce the same result), press "save" button (I think emacs shows toolbar by default). emacs gives you the power to do much more but it doesn't force you to use it. To be fair making emacs a complete Python IDE that has the same features as Eclipse for Java has a steep learning curve and it is not trivial. But for the book you don't need it (some don't need it even for professional work with Python provided that there are other useful features in emacs).
- mvanveen 14y ago
  Did you even read the link? I'm sorry, but I can't imagine a worse time to invoke the editor wars. Shame on you. Look, I love my editor just as much as the next guy. I have tremendous respect for emacs, and you can take vim from my cold, dead hands (and no, I will not start those wars now, either). But a beginner has far too much trouble just getting shit fucking installed and working consistently. Case in point: the reason why a menagerie of tools and scripts for setting up programming environments make the front page of HN every week is because it's a total schlep to try and get your environment set up. And this is an audience of experts. That 30 second fabric deploy script is literally the most convenient that process will be for anyone, ever. A beginner might have a hard enough of a time touch typing. I think Zed's entire point is to dissuade beginners to listen to people who are proselytizing as you are now. Let the beginner find emacs when they're ready. Trying to move them into that habit up front might be beyond the opportunity cost of programming for that individual. And then a community which is attacked left and right by ignorant people in power trying to legislate it away will have have lost an ally do to pithy zealotry. Any amount of editor or environment advocacy on your part is really just injuring the signal to noise ratio.
  - heretohelp 14y ago
    Even explaining why C-s searches instead of saving in Emacs is an immense roadblock for new users. The guy you're responding to is suffering from this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge Not everybody that writes code needs to be using Emacs or vim. Just the same, not every 6 year old kid learning to play violin needs a Stradivarius. I've been using Emacs for counts in head 13 years, almost 14 now. I've also spent many years teaching new people to use it and I can tell you right now, most people not willing to dedicate some time independent of anything else to just learning Emacs will get any value out of it. Don't distract them from learning to code. End of story.
- slurgfest 14y ago
  gedit is unquestionably simpler than emacs for anyone with even cursory exposure to the computer (notepad, Word, etc.) Even just the simplification of the visible interface and the docs is an underestimated source of comfort and ease of learning. The odds of trying to become a programmer without cursory exposure are not great. Knowing how to use a decent text editor is a more advanced skill, but after years of using one it's hard to remember how it was before.
  - d0mine 14y ago
    My point exactly that it is a common myth that even using a tiny subset of features needed for a complete beginner is somehow more complex in emacs than in other editors (gedit in this case).

artursapek 14y ago

It's not about learning "in their own way," it's just about baby steps. Programmers tend to get enthusiastic and start giving enthusiastic advice, like "use Emacs!" I learned Javascript in shitty Aptana Studio and (thanks to Zed) Python in gedit. Now I use Vim for everything.

d0mine 14y ago

I don't see how gedit is simpler than emacs for a complete beginner: open an editor, start typing (letters, arrows, delete produce the same result), press "save" button (I think emacs shows toolbar by default). emacs gives you the power to do much more but it doesn't force you to use it. To be fair making emacs a complete Python IDE that has the same features as Eclipse for Java has a steep learning curve and it is not trivial. But for the book you don't need it (some don't need it even for professional work with Python provided that there are other useful features in emacs).

mvanveen 14y ago
Did you even read the link? I'm sorry, but I can't imagine a worse time to invoke the editor wars. Shame on you. Look, I love my editor just as much as the next guy. I have tremendous respect for emacs, and you can take vim from my cold, dead hands (and no, I will not start those wars now, either). But a beginner has far too much trouble just getting shit fucking installed and working consistently. Case in point: the reason why a menagerie of tools and scripts for setting up programming environments make the front page of HN every week is because it's a total schlep to try and get your environment set up. And this is an audience of experts. That 30 second fabric deploy script is literally the most convenient that process will be for anyone, ever. A beginner might have a hard enough of a time touch typing. I think Zed's entire point is to dissuade beginners to listen to people who are proselytizing as you are now. Let the beginner find emacs when they're ready. Trying to move them into that habit up front might be beyond the opportunity cost of programming for that individual. And then a community which is attacked left and right by ignorant people in power trying to legislate it away will have have lost an ally do to pithy zealotry. Any amount of editor or environment advocacy on your part is really just injuring the signal to noise ratio.
- heretohelp 14y ago
  Even explaining why C-s searches instead of saving in Emacs is an immense roadblock for new users. The guy you're responding to is suffering from this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge Not everybody that writes code needs to be using Emacs or vim. Just the same, not every 6 year old kid learning to play violin needs a Stradivarius. I've been using Emacs for counts in head 13 years, almost 14 now. I've also spent many years teaching new people to use it and I can tell you right now, most people not willing to dedicate some time independent of anything else to just learning Emacs will get any value out of it. Don't distract them from learning to code. End of story.
slurgfest 14y ago
gedit is unquestionably simpler than emacs for anyone with even cursory exposure to the computer (notepad, Word, etc.) Even just the simplification of the visible interface and the docs is an underestimated source of comfort and ease of learning. The odds of trying to become a programmer without cursory exposure are not great. Knowing how to use a decent text editor is a more advanced skill, but after years of using one it's hard to remember how it was before.
- d0mine 14y ago
  My point exactly that it is a common myth that even using a tiny subset of features needed for a complete beginner is somehow more complex in emacs than in other editors (gedit in this case).