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Why should yours? It seemed like you liked musing about this topic so I added a bit. You (and I) have no idea if the universe is or not a computer. If you don'

by vasco 2y ago

Why should yours? It seemed like you liked musing about this topic so I added a bit. You (and I) have no idea if the universe is or not a computer. If you don't see the connection of free will to error margin of a deterministic system then I'm not sure how else to put it. Just imagine a deterministic program getting a bit flipped by a cosmic ray and turning non deterministic and apply that to the universe's system of laws.

thfuran 2y ago
I'm also not seeing the connection to free will. Did the program choose to be broken by a cosmic ray? Did the cosmic ray choose to break the program? Stochasticty doesn't imply volition.
- vasco 2y ago
  It's the only way I've come up with that allows for free will, maybe other people have other ways. If the universe is not like a computer then I have even less ability to explain where free will would be possible. Cosmic rays are just an example to explain that there's external causes of non-determinism to a deterministic system. Another example I gave above was the limit of precision of the system itself, allowing for "free will" (meaning something which isn't perfectly explainable by just the laws+starting conditions). To me it's obvious the universe is deterministic, but the fun part is imagining ways in which it might not be. Comparing the universe to a computer is a fun way to think about it.
  - dTal 2y ago
    10 print "If the universe is non-deterministic, that provides an explanation for free will!" 20 print "How? Coin flips don't have free will..." 30 goto 10
  - vasco 2y ago
    We're too deep so I can't reply anymore, but I didn't say this was an explanation for it, more like a possible requirement for it. There may be other ways in which free will would be possible. Remember, I said already multiple times I start from the premise there is none, but it's fun to take the other side and try to come up with possibilities. I think you're too boring if you just take a position and never try to defeat it in your mind!
mrguyorama 2y ago
>You (and I) have no idea if the universe is or not a computer. You actually cannot just say "Man, the universe is so complicated, so it is possible it could be anything!" That's a non-sequitur and not sound reasoning or logic.
- vasco 2y ago
  I didn't say it could be anything - I said it could be a computer! I don't think the universe can be a towel for example.

by vasco 2y ago

thfuran 2y ago

I'm also not seeing the connection to free will. Did the program choose to be broken by a cosmic ray? Did the cosmic ray choose to break the program? Stochasticty doesn't imply volition.

vasco 2y ago
It's the only way I've come up with that allows for free will, maybe other people have other ways. If the universe is not like a computer then I have even less ability to explain where free will would be possible. Cosmic rays are just an example to explain that there's external causes of non-determinism to a deterministic system. Another example I gave above was the limit of precision of the system itself, allowing for "free will" (meaning something which isn't perfectly explainable by just the laws+starting conditions). To me it's obvious the universe is deterministic, but the fun part is imagining ways in which it might not be. Comparing the universe to a computer is a fun way to think about it.
- dTal 2y ago
  10 print "If the universe is non-deterministic, that provides an explanation for free will!" 20 print "How? Coin flips don't have free will..." 30 goto 10
- vasco 2y ago
  We're too deep so I can't reply anymore, but I didn't say this was an explanation for it, more like a possible requirement for it. There may be other ways in which free will would be possible. Remember, I said already multiple times I start from the premise there is none, but it's fun to take the other side and try to come up with possibilities. I think you're too boring if you just take a position and never try to defeat it in your mind!

mrguyorama 2y ago

>You (and I) have no idea if the universe is or not a computer. You actually cannot just say "Man, the universe is so complicated, so it is possible it could be anything!" That's a non-sequitur and not sound reasoning or logic.

vasco 2y ago
I didn't say it could be anything - I said it could be a computer! I don't think the universe can be a towel for example.