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Because it is exactly the EU governance that lacks democratic representation, enabling unfavoured politicians to remain in significant power. You can only elect

Because it is exactly the EU governance that lacks democratic representation, enabling unfavoured politicians to remain in significant power. You can only elect MEPs (via party lists) locally. The majority of legalislation is drafted by the technocratic European Commission and legislation is mostly passed through parlaiment unchanged from there. There are many nationally disgraced politicians seating in the EP, EC or council. Only the ones in the EP were electible. The people have correctly identified that a massive supranational unaccountable government is the problem, enabling corrupt people to keep ruling which undermines the core functioning of representative democracy.

Double_a_92 2y ago
By voting for the members of parliament, and the parliament then deciding everything else... Ideally things should work out as the people want it. Otherwise it would mean that democracy just doesn't work...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- gillesjacobs 2y ago
  Supranational/federalist "representative" particracy does not work. Representative democracy works better with increased locality, where policy and politicians are directly beholden to constituents.
mariusor 2y ago
In this specific case I believe that it's the EU Council that pushes for the current iteration of the law, which is formed of the head of states for each EU member. So, even if they might not be explicitly elected to be in the EU governance, most of them have reached that spot through more or less democratic means. "More or less" because Prime Ministers are usually nominated not elected, but that's still as part of each country's democratic process.
- tichiian 2y ago
  Only direct elections are democratic. Everything else is at best semi-democratic.
- raxxorraxor 2y ago
  The level of indirection is very important and you can only elect a very small part of the council. There are a lot democratic deficiencies. It lately became en vogue to deny the problem completely and EU politics only got dumber from that.
  - mariusor 2y ago
    Can you tell me what democratic deficiencies you see in this? Why is the process of having a prime minister/chancellor/etc as head of state fine in a national democratic process, but not on a european level? If I see any issue with the way EU passes laws is with the terrible overhead of having three to four bodies that govern the whole process, from proposal to legislature, not necessarily with the way some participants get there.
    - account42 2y ago
      > Can you tell me what democratic deficiencies you see in this? Why is the process of having a prime minister/chancellor/etc as head of state fine in a national democratic process, but not on a european level? Well for one because people already vode with the head of state in mind when choosing the party. Even if they were aware of the EU politicians of said party (which is never part of the campaign materials) then they now have even more things to compromise on with a single vote. > If I see any issue with the way EU passes laws is with the terrible overhead of having three to four bodies that govern the whole process, from proposal to legislature, not necessarily with the way some participants get there. Actually that's the EU's saving grace. The more people are affected by new legislation the more difficult and slower it should be to push that legislation through. The EU should be slow moving but instead we are constantly in a situation like this where bad laws are not far from being passed.
beeboobaa3 2y ago
Yes, this is called a representative democracy. The fix is to vote for representatives who represent your values. Or run yourself.
- gillesjacobs 2y ago
  There are many different types and implementations of representative democracy. And the supranational technocracy-driven particracy of the EU is only representative in name. It is on the oligarchic end of the democracy-oligarchy spectrum.
- Am4TIfIsER0ppos 2y ago
  Representative in what way? 700 MEPs for about 450M people means each one has 640k "constituents". Those "constituents" are really a fraction each person all smeared about. Lastly if they were actual people and an MEP were to hold a consultation to get their views it gives each person less than 1 minute each year assuming the MEP was available 24/7/365.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    Well if they're modeling if after what we have in the US they pretty much nailed it. 435 representatives for 330M people or around 758k constituents per rep.
iknowstuff 2y ago
How is voting different from other federal states? EP frequently alters EC proposals. Council consists of heads of state, commission is appointed by council and parliament, and the parliament is directly elected. Not terribly different from how prime ministers ate appointed.

Double_a_92 2y ago

By voting for the members of parliament, and the parliament then deciding everything else... Ideally things should work out as the people want it. Otherwise it would mean that democracy just doesn't work...

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
gillesjacobs 2y ago
Supranational/federalist "representative" particracy does not work. Representative democracy works better with increased locality, where policy and politicians are directly beholden to constituents.

mariusor 2y ago

In this specific case I believe that it's the EU Council that pushes for the current iteration of the law, which is formed of the head of states for each EU member. So, even if they might not be explicitly elected to be in the EU governance, most of them have reached that spot through more or less democratic means. "More or less" because Prime Ministers are usually nominated not elected, but that's still as part of each country's democratic process.

tichiian 2y ago
Only direct elections are democratic. Everything else is at best semi-democratic.
raxxorraxor 2y ago
The level of indirection is very important and you can only elect a very small part of the council. There are a lot democratic deficiencies. It lately became en vogue to deny the problem completely and EU politics only got dumber from that.
- mariusor 2y ago
  Can you tell me what democratic deficiencies you see in this? Why is the process of having a prime minister/chancellor/etc as head of state fine in a national democratic process, but not on a european level? If I see any issue with the way EU passes laws is with the terrible overhead of having three to four bodies that govern the whole process, from proposal to legislature, not necessarily with the way some participants get there.
  - account42 2y ago
    > Can you tell me what democratic deficiencies you see in this? Why is the process of having a prime minister/chancellor/etc as head of state fine in a national democratic process, but not on a european level? Well for one because people already vode with the head of state in mind when choosing the party. Even if they were aware of the EU politicians of said party (which is never part of the campaign materials) then they now have even more things to compromise on with a single vote. > If I see any issue with the way EU passes laws is with the terrible overhead of having three to four bodies that govern the whole process, from proposal to legislature, not necessarily with the way some participants get there. Actually that's the EU's saving grace. The more people are affected by new legislation the more difficult and slower it should be to push that legislation through. The EU should be slow moving but instead we are constantly in a situation like this where bad laws are not far from being passed.

beeboobaa3 2y ago

Yes, this is called a representative democracy. The fix is to vote for representatives who represent your values. Or run yourself.

gillesjacobs 2y ago
There are many different types and implementations of representative democracy. And the supranational technocracy-driven particracy of the EU is only representative in name. It is on the oligarchic end of the democracy-oligarchy spectrum.
Am4TIfIsER0ppos 2y ago
Representative in what way? 700 MEPs for about 450M people means each one has 640k "constituents". Those "constituents" are really a fraction each person all smeared about. Lastly if they were actual people and an MEP were to hold a consultation to get their views it gives each person less than 1 minute each year assuming the MEP was available 24/7/365.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  Well if they're modeling if after what we have in the US they pretty much nailed it. 435 representatives for 330M people or around 758k constituents per rep.

iknowstuff 2y ago

How is voting different from other federal states? EP frequently alters EC proposals. Council consists of heads of state, commission is appointed by council and parliament, and the parliament is directly elected. Not terribly different from how prime ministers ate appointed.