6 ms·

Almost nothing is. Local politicians fail upwards to the EU (at least in Germany) or some private job, if they fail at all. Most of the time, you can do what yo

Almost nothing is. Local politicians fail upwards to the EU (at least in Germany) or some private job, if they fail at all. Most of the time, you can do what you want, and the voters don’t care.

kqr 2y ago
And, on the flip side of the coin: once you are sufficiently disliked, almost anything can be taken as the trigger point for a scandal.
- account42 2y ago
  But when was the last time a "scandal" has resulted in actual negative outcomes for a politician?
pfortuny 2y ago
Same in Spain.
lukan 2y ago
"and the voters don’t care." Then why did so many vote extremist anti EU? There just has been EU election in germany and the nationalist gained a lot. And none of the big parties otherwise said a clear no to that, so what could I do, except vote a small party against that, but too small to really do something? Voters care. But they see often no point in voting anymore.
- Tuna-Fish 2y ago
  That's precisely the thing. Whenever EU does something people don't like, they hate EU, not the council members who voted for it.
  - gillesjacobs 2y ago
    Because it is exactly the EU governance that lacks democratic representation, enabling unfavoured politicians to remain in significant power. You can only elect MEPs (via party lists) locally. The majority of legalislation is drafted by the technocratic European Commission and legislation is mostly passed through parlaiment unchanged from there. There are many nationally disgraced politicians seating in the EP, EC or council. Only the ones in the EP were electible. The people have correctly identified that a massive supranational unaccountable government is the problem, enabling corrupt people to keep ruling which undermines the core functioning of representative democracy.
    - Double_a_92 2y ago
      By voting for the members of parliament, and the parliament then deciding everything else... Ideally things should work out as the people want it. Otherwise it would mean that democracy just doesn't work...
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - gillesjacobs 2y ago
        Supranational/federalist "representative" particracy does not work. Representative democracy works better with increased locality, where policy and politicians are directly beholden to constituents.
    - mariusor 2y ago
      In this specific case I believe that it's the EU Council that pushes for the current iteration of the law, which is formed of the head of states for each EU member. So, even if they might not be explicitly elected to be in the EU governance, most of them have reached that spot through more or less democratic means. "More or less" because Prime Ministers are usually nominated not elected, but that's still as part of each country's democratic process.
      - tichiian 2y ago
        Only direct elections are democratic. Everything else is at best semi-democratic.
      - raxxorraxor 2y ago
        The level of indirection is very important and you can only elect a very small part of the council. There are a lot democratic deficiencies. It lately became en vogue to deny the problem completely and EU politics only got dumber from that.
        mariusor 2y ago
- blumomo 2y ago
  > Then why did so many vote extremist anti EU? Is the EU really a benefit to the people? Or is it a shit pool full of scum bags providing quite some damage to societies?
  - ricardobeat 2y ago
    All things considered I think that’s a strong yes. Open borders, free trade, technological collaboration, and shared health, industry and consumer regulations help accelerate economic development. Can’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
    - simianparrot 2y ago
      First two have been utter disasters however, and are directly affecting people on a daily basis now. Here in Scandinavia it’s coming to a head but it’s a similar story further south, in Germany in particular.
      - iknowstuff 2y ago
        [flagged]
      - ricardobeat 2y ago
        Immigration, which I assume is what you’re hinting at, has nothing to do with open borders between EU states.
        simianparrot 2y ago
        Unchecked cheap labor from eastern european countries has had a dramatic effect. That's directly related. But illegal immigration also does because the moment you get in to one lax EU country with open borders to another, your movement is a lot easier. I live this reality and have family in law enforcement. You might not want to believe it but it's absolutely the truth on the ground. We need to control our borders much more strictly.
      - 2y ago
- vladvasiliu 2y ago
  How many people did actually bother to vote in Germany? Here in France, the "extremists" got a bit over 30% of votes. But turnout was only 51%. According to [0] average turnout is 51%. Some countries have very high numbers (IIRC voting is mandatory in Belgium?), others ridiculously low. This, to me, means pretty much that "voters don't care". [0] https://results.elections.europa.eu/en/turnout/ https://results.elections.europa.eu/en/turnout/
  - fabianholzer 2y ago
    > How many people did actually bother to vote in Germany? 64.78%, or over 40 million in absolute terms.
  - pxtail 2y ago
    > How many people did actually bother to vote in Germany? People (including me) doesn't want to bother with voting when the whole thing is a farce - it's beyond my understanding why would someone be enticed to vote for incompetent politicians who get parachuted into EU parliament to earn hefty wage - very often as a reward for outrageous behavior, there are multiple examples of this, influencer from Cyprus, that polish MP who got expelled from Poland's parliament for outrageous behavior - surprise surprise - he got comfy EP seat. Absolutely disgusting.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - account42 2y ago
      I find a better action than not voting is to vote for the smallest most extremist fracton you can find even if you don't agree with most of their policies. Low voter turnout doesn't make headlines, the "bad" parties gaining traction does.
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    > This, to me, means pretty much that "voters don't care". This is simplistic. Some have simply lost confidence in their representatives and/or cannot find a decent candidate.
- Semaphor 2y ago
  > Then why did so many vote extremist anti EU? Like the parties (again, here in Germany, don’t know enough about other countries) that manage to be even more corrupt? That actually supports my point. The biggest winners here were the anti-EU-pro-Russia AfD and the pro-EU CDU both with the biggest corruption scandals in recent years, and the CDU is even the party that sent the horror that is EU commission president von der Leyen.
- kbrkbr 2y ago
  > There just has been EU election in germany and the nationalist gained a lot. That really depends on your point of comparison. Compared to their 22% high in February, they lost a lot with 16% actual votes (more than 25% down). 84% voted something else. https://interaktiv.tagesspiegel.de/lab/europawahl-2024-sonntagsfrage-wahlumfragen/ https://interaktiv.tagesspiegel.de/lab/europawahl-2024-sonnt...
- raxxorraxor 2y ago
  > Then why did so many vote extremist anti EU? That is one of the issues, no EU election would have changed what the commission is doing at all.
- account42 2y ago
  Most people probably don't even know the EU policies of the candidates they are voting for and are just going by national party lines. Why nationalist parties are winning when the current and previous governments have been going full steam ahead in the other direction while ignoring the entirely valid concerns of the populance should surprise no one.
blumomo 2y ago
Those not yet brain washed voters do actually care. But then there are the „Wahlhelfer“ who openly proud themselves in Twitter to invalidate votes for parties they disagree with. This is democracy?
- FabHK 2y ago
  Sources?

Almost nothing is. Local politicians fail upwards to the EU (at least in Germany) or some private job, if they fail at all. Most of the time, you can do what you want, and the voters don’t care.

kqr 2y ago

And, on the flip side of the coin: once you are sufficiently disliked, almost anything can be taken as the trigger point for a scandal.

account42 2y ago
But when was the last time a "scandal" has resulted in actual negative outcomes for a politician?

pfortuny 2y ago

Same in Spain.

lukan 2y ago

"and the voters don’t care." Then why did so many vote extremist anti EU? There just has been EU election in germany and the nationalist gained a lot. And none of the big parties otherwise said a clear no to that, so what could I do, except vote a small party against that, but too small to really do something? Voters care. But they see often no point in voting anymore.

Tuna-Fish 2y ago
That's precisely the thing. Whenever EU does something people don't like, they hate EU, not the council members who voted for it.
- gillesjacobs 2y ago
  Because it is exactly the EU governance that lacks democratic representation, enabling unfavoured politicians to remain in significant power. You can only elect MEPs (via party lists) locally. The majority of legalislation is drafted by the technocratic European Commission and legislation is mostly passed through parlaiment unchanged from there. There are many nationally disgraced politicians seating in the EP, EC or council. Only the ones in the EP were electible. The people have correctly identified that a massive supranational unaccountable government is the problem, enabling corrupt people to keep ruling which undermines the core functioning of representative democracy.
  - Double_a_92 2y ago
    By voting for the members of parliament, and the parliament then deciding everything else... Ideally things should work out as the people want it. Otherwise it would mean that democracy just doesn't work...
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - gillesjacobs 2y ago
      Supranational/federalist "representative" particracy does not work. Representative democracy works better with increased locality, where policy and politicians are directly beholden to constituents.
  - mariusor 2y ago
    In this specific case I believe that it's the EU Council that pushes for the current iteration of the law, which is formed of the head of states for each EU member. So, even if they might not be explicitly elected to be in the EU governance, most of them have reached that spot through more or less democratic means. "More or less" because Prime Ministers are usually nominated not elected, but that's still as part of each country's democratic process.
    - tichiian 2y ago
      Only direct elections are democratic. Everything else is at best semi-democratic.
    - raxxorraxor 2y ago
      The level of indirection is very important and you can only elect a very small part of the council. There are a lot democratic deficiencies. It lately became en vogue to deny the problem completely and EU politics only got dumber from that.
      - mariusor 2y ago
blumomo 2y ago
> Then why did so many vote extremist anti EU? Is the EU really a benefit to the people? Or is it a shit pool full of scum bags providing quite some damage to societies?
- ricardobeat 2y ago
  All things considered I think that’s a strong yes. Open borders, free trade, technological collaboration, and shared health, industry and consumer regulations help accelerate economic development. Can’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.
  - simianparrot 2y ago
    First two have been utter disasters however, and are directly affecting people on a daily basis now. Here in Scandinavia it’s coming to a head but it’s a similar story further south, in Germany in particular.
    - iknowstuff 2y ago
      [flagged]
    - ricardobeat 2y ago
      Immigration, which I assume is what you’re hinting at, has nothing to do with open borders between EU states.
      - simianparrot 2y ago
        Unchecked cheap labor from eastern european countries has had a dramatic effect. That's directly related. But illegal immigration also does because the moment you get in to one lax EU country with open borders to another, your movement is a lot easier. I live this reality and have family in law enforcement. You might not want to believe it but it's absolutely the truth on the ground. We need to control our borders much more strictly.
    - 2y ago
vladvasiliu 2y ago
How many people did actually bother to vote in Germany? Here in France, the "extremists" got a bit over 30% of votes. But turnout was only 51%. According to [0] average turnout is 51%. Some countries have very high numbers (IIRC voting is mandatory in Belgium?), others ridiculously low. This, to me, means pretty much that "voters don't care". [0] https://results.elections.europa.eu/en/turnout/ https://results.elections.europa.eu/en/turnout/
- fabianholzer 2y ago
  > How many people did actually bother to vote in Germany? 64.78%, or over 40 million in absolute terms.
- pxtail 2y ago
  > How many people did actually bother to vote in Germany? People (including me) doesn't want to bother with voting when the whole thing is a farce - it's beyond my understanding why would someone be enticed to vote for incompetent politicians who get parachuted into EU parliament to earn hefty wage - very often as a reward for outrageous behavior, there are multiple examples of this, influencer from Cyprus, that polish MP who got expelled from Poland's parliament for outrageous behavior - surprise surprise - he got comfy EP seat. Absolutely disgusting.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - account42 2y ago
    I find a better action than not voting is to vote for the smallest most extremist fracton you can find even if you don't agree with most of their policies. Low voter turnout doesn't make headlines, the "bad" parties gaining traction does.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  > This, to me, means pretty much that "voters don't care". This is simplistic. Some have simply lost confidence in their representatives and/or cannot find a decent candidate.
Semaphor 2y ago
> Then why did so many vote extremist anti EU? Like the parties (again, here in Germany, don’t know enough about other countries) that manage to be even more corrupt? That actually supports my point. The biggest winners here were the anti-EU-pro-Russia AfD and the pro-EU CDU both with the biggest corruption scandals in recent years, and the CDU is even the party that sent the horror that is EU commission president von der Leyen.
kbrkbr 2y ago
> There just has been EU election in germany and the nationalist gained a lot. That really depends on your point of comparison. Compared to their 22% high in February, they lost a lot with 16% actual votes (more than 25% down). 84% voted something else. https://interaktiv.tagesspiegel.de/lab/europawahl-2024-sonntagsfrage-wahlumfragen/ https://interaktiv.tagesspiegel.de/lab/europawahl-2024-sonnt...
raxxorraxor 2y ago
> Then why did so many vote extremist anti EU? That is one of the issues, no EU election would have changed what the commission is doing at all.
account42 2y ago
Most people probably don't even know the EU policies of the candidates they are voting for and are just going by national party lines. Why nationalist parties are winning when the current and previous governments have been going full steam ahead in the other direction while ignoring the entirely valid concerns of the populance should surprise no one.

blumomo 2y ago

Those not yet brain washed voters do actually care. But then there are the „Wahlhelfer“ who openly proud themselves in Twitter to invalidate votes for parties they disagree with. This is democracy?

FabHK 2y ago
Sources?