5 ms·

"Clearly" refers to the obviousness or self-evidence of the statement. In this context, "just" means "similarly" or "in the same way," or ig "exactly" if you li

"Clearly" refers to the obviousness or self-evidence of the statement. In this context, "just" means "similarly" or "in the same way," or ig "exactly" if you like. "Clearly" because exterior stimuli clearly influence both thinking and feeling, a concept supported by common experience and scientific understanding of human cognition and emotions.

poochkoishi728 2y ago
Influence != Determine
- MeImCounting 2y ago
  Yes it is indeed possible that in that small and shrinking gap of behavior that isnt explained by some complex set of circumstances and stimuli there lies some magic immaterial soul that grants the ineffable quality of free will. Bbbut since we have yet to find any evidence for such a thing I wouldnt keep my hopes up. Also theres much more interesting questions to be asking.
  - mistermann 2y ago
    Might "explanations" have a (perhaps private, or semi-private) epistemic value attribute? That could certainly change the game up.
    - MeImCounting 2y ago
      Well most of the explanations I personally am interested in have a public and therefore high epistemic value. Since they are published and repeatable. Certain behavioral tests or self-report surveys on the other hand have lower value because of the private nature of what were intending to test. They still have some value though. Private experiences may be very important for individuals and like I said elsewhere, free-will is certainly a useful idea in religious contexts. I do not believe this has any bearing on practical matters such as our ability to predict or understand the actions taken by any given system such as humans or computers.
      - mistermann 2y ago
        > Well most of the explanations I personally am interested in have a public and therefore high epistemic value. Since they are published and repeatable. Are you saying that these two claims have some sort of scientific ~proofs: 1.Thinking isn't even a path to "free will". 2a. Thinking is pretty clearly determined by exterior stimulus 2b. just like feeling is. Note: a definition for "determined by" (in percentage of total causality) would be required in the specification, as would a non-ambiguous definition for "just like".
        MeImCounting 2y ago
        > Are you saying that these two claims have some sort of scientific ~proofs No. I think this statement is a conclusion only indirectly supported by scientific fact. This is a logical leap from more and more behaviors and internal states being correlated with various external stimulus over time. I believe it only a matter of time until it becomes entirely possible (though silly and will likely not be done because it only serves to prove a foregone conclusion and would be a unfathomably huge undertaking) to provide a complete accounting of all the factors that influence a system bringing it to the state where it reacts in a given way to some stimulus. The only other conclusion I can see is that human beings are not deterministic and there is some magical spark IE everlasting soul making randomized decisions for us.
        mistermann 2y ago
        > I think this statement is a conclusion only indirectly supported by scientific fact. Can you expand on this "supported by" scientific fact? Is it something more than is not inconsistent with, and more towards must be, necessarily?
mistermann 2y ago
How are all of these measured?
- MeImCounting 2y ago
  Theres actually a ton of different ways. The most obvious is probably MRIs of which many have been conducted with the subject having a huge variety of different stimulus. Then theres the good old fashioned behavioral studies ranging from the classic "does the subject jerk their hand back in the presence of heat?" to the more recent hungry judge phenomenon. I wouldnt think the fairly self evident assertion that exterior stimulus changes both the internal state of a person as well as their behavior would be controversial. At this point in history "free will" is really just the god of the gaps and those gaps shrink every year. Its probably a useful religious concept but as far as reality goes its the least interesting question one could ask about the whole human experience.
  - mistermann 2y ago
    Did you remember to check/contemplate whether your "measurements" are correct? This seems like a rather recursively self-referential problem.
    - MeImCounting 2y ago
      Im not really sure what you mean here, could you elaborate?
      - mistermann 2y ago
        Well, above you seem to be describing "how things are". What if what you're describing is not the things themselves, but rather only a model of the things? Like, where are the details of how you are "measuring" these things? And what measurement instrument returns values like "is clearly" and "is really just"? I can think of only one.
        2y ago

poochkoishi728 2y ago

Influence != Determine

MeImCounting 2y ago
Yes it is indeed possible that in that small and shrinking gap of behavior that isnt explained by some complex set of circumstances and stimuli there lies some magic immaterial soul that grants the ineffable quality of free will. Bbbut since we have yet to find any evidence for such a thing I wouldnt keep my hopes up. Also theres much more interesting questions to be asking.
- mistermann 2y ago
  Might "explanations" have a (perhaps private, or semi-private) epistemic value attribute? That could certainly change the game up.
  - MeImCounting 2y ago
    Well most of the explanations I personally am interested in have a public and therefore high epistemic value. Since they are published and repeatable. Certain behavioral tests or self-report surveys on the other hand have lower value because of the private nature of what were intending to test. They still have some value though. Private experiences may be very important for individuals and like I said elsewhere, free-will is certainly a useful idea in religious contexts. I do not believe this has any bearing on practical matters such as our ability to predict or understand the actions taken by any given system such as humans or computers.
    - mistermann 2y ago
      > Well most of the explanations I personally am interested in have a public and therefore high epistemic value. Since they are published and repeatable. Are you saying that these two claims have some sort of scientific ~proofs: 1.Thinking isn't even a path to "free will". 2a. Thinking is pretty clearly determined by exterior stimulus 2b. just like feeling is. Note: a definition for "determined by" (in percentage of total causality) would be required in the specification, as would a non-ambiguous definition for "just like".
      - MeImCounting 2y ago
        > Are you saying that these two claims have some sort of scientific ~proofs No. I think this statement is a conclusion only indirectly supported by scientific fact. This is a logical leap from more and more behaviors and internal states being correlated with various external stimulus over time. I believe it only a matter of time until it becomes entirely possible (though silly and will likely not be done because it only serves to prove a foregone conclusion and would be a unfathomably huge undertaking) to provide a complete accounting of all the factors that influence a system bringing it to the state where it reacts in a given way to some stimulus. The only other conclusion I can see is that human beings are not deterministic and there is some magical spark IE everlasting soul making randomized decisions for us.
        mistermann 2y ago
        > I think this statement is a conclusion only indirectly supported by scientific fact. Can you expand on this "supported by" scientific fact? Is it something more than is not inconsistent with, and more towards must be, necessarily?

mistermann 2y ago

How are all of these measured?

MeImCounting 2y ago
Theres actually a ton of different ways. The most obvious is probably MRIs of which many have been conducted with the subject having a huge variety of different stimulus. Then theres the good old fashioned behavioral studies ranging from the classic "does the subject jerk their hand back in the presence of heat?" to the more recent hungry judge phenomenon. I wouldnt think the fairly self evident assertion that exterior stimulus changes both the internal state of a person as well as their behavior would be controversial. At this point in history "free will" is really just the god of the gaps and those gaps shrink every year. Its probably a useful religious concept but as far as reality goes its the least interesting question one could ask about the whole human experience.
- mistermann 2y ago
  Did you remember to check/contemplate whether your "measurements" are correct? This seems like a rather recursively self-referential problem.
  - MeImCounting 2y ago
    Im not really sure what you mean here, could you elaborate?
    - mistermann 2y ago
      Well, above you seem to be describing "how things are". What if what you're describing is not the things themselves, but rather only a model of the things? Like, where are the details of how you are "measuring" these things? And what measurement instrument returns values like "is clearly" and "is really just"? I can think of only one.
      - 2y ago