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There's an idea of 'fixed action patterns' where certain behaviors are encoded in the neurology of an animal, and triggered by certain stimulus. For spiders th

There's an idea of 'fixed action patterns' where certain behaviors are encoded in the neurology of an animal, and triggered by certain stimulus. For spiders then there is an action pattern that upon certain stimulus they will use their spinnerets begin forming a web, first placing anchor points and gradually building it up with radial threads and spiral. The exact behavior differs by species such that they have different resulting patterns. It seems possible that there is an element of 'learning' beyond the basic pattern as well, even in seemingly very simple animals. I doubt the spiders have a mental model of what their web looks like as such, it's more evolutionary driven genetic behavior, a particular neuronal pattern encoding the action sequence rather than an underlying fundamental understanding.

funcDropShadow 2y ago
I've always wondered why so many different culture know some notion of a dragon. Is it possible that these are based on inherited memories, patterns, insticts of dinosaurs? I know this would be a wild leap but one my wonder.
- krapp 2y ago
  The trick is that "some notion of a dragon" is incredibly vague, with "dragons" sharing very few commonalities between cultures. A European wyvern and Quetzalcoatl are almost nothing alike, yet people consider them both "dragons." >Is it possible that these are based on inherited memories, patterns, insticts of dinosaurs? It is possible that these are based, at least in part, on the discovery of dinosaur fossils, but humans didn't even evolve until the dinosaurs were long dead. So even if it were possible for "inherited memory" to include visual memories it wouldn't do so for dinosaurs.
  - funcDropShadow 2y ago
    Why should inheritance stop at species boundaries?
    - krapp 2y ago
      It isn't a matter of "species boundaries," which aren't even really rigidly defined, so much as time, complexity and information compression. It doesn't seem likely that whatever primitive mammalian ancestor eventually evolved into primates, and then into humans, carried within it a coherent enough visual and behavioral memory of dinosaurs to have survived so many generations of mutation, eventually informing the modern idea of "dragons" as winged reptiles. And again, it isn't even true that there is a cross-cultural concept of "dragons" to begin with. It's a eurocentric myth, in that it assumes a Western concept of a "dragon" to be the default, and ignores any other cultural context in order to fit their mythologies into that mold.
mech422 2y ago
Thanks! >For spiders then there is an action pattern that upon certain stimulus they will use their spinnerets begin forming a web, first placing anchor points and gradually building it up with radial threads and spiral. I can sorta understand stimulus causing them to start making a web (sorta like stimulating a mammary can cause lactation) - but how do it 'know' to use a radial pattern rather then ah-hoc mess the black widows on my porch make? The 'ad-hoc' pattern seems like it would be more 'likely' then a nice pattern? Overall, I guess it just seems like a rather complex pattern/behavior? Also, I guess I have a more basic question of 'what is instinct' if its not some sort of 'memory'? People seem to have an 'instinct' of the mechanics of throwing a ball, yet we have wildly different abilities with regards to accuracy, 'form', distance/speed (due to muscalture?) - it just seems like we have an 'instinct' for the 'simple' mechanical movements but not for the more complex behavior like throwing a ball to hit a target ? Thanks again!
- AQuantized 2y ago
  The stimulus starts the fixed action pattern, but that action pattern includes the behavior to make the entire web, not just the start off the process. Different species of spider have different fixed action patterns (and different neurology underlying that, and different DNA underlying that neurology). I think throwing a ball is more learned, although some behaviors like grasping the ball may provided a fixed action foundation on which higher order learning builds. Baby humans have a grasp reflex that works in a similar way to the fixed action pattern described, but with a simpler action sequence. If you touch the palm of a toddler, they will instinctively tightly grasp. It's interesting that the grasp reflex disappears around 5 years old, so the fixed neuronal pattern is subsumed by higher order learned behavior.
  - mech422 2y ago
    >>includes the behavior to make the entire web, not just the start off the process. Thats where I get stuck..the 'behavior' has to account for different sizes of webs (the spider might be in a tight space, or a more open space), etc. That just seems like an incredibly complex behavior to encode...Cells are supposedly 'simple' organisms but they manage to create/manage such complex behaviors...it's mind blowing.. Thanks!
hammyhavoc 2y ago
Adjacent, and you've probably seen it before, but you and others might be interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_psychoactive_drugs_on_animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_psychoactive_drugs_o... This is fascinating stuff.
- mech422 2y ago
  LOL - yeah, I remember seeing the spider ones and going "probably better then I could do stoned" :-P

funcDropShadow 2y ago

I've always wondered why so many different culture know some notion of a dragon. Is it possible that these are based on inherited memories, patterns, insticts of dinosaurs? I know this would be a wild leap but one my wonder.

krapp 2y ago
The trick is that "some notion of a dragon" is incredibly vague, with "dragons" sharing very few commonalities between cultures. A European wyvern and Quetzalcoatl are almost nothing alike, yet people consider them both "dragons." >Is it possible that these are based on inherited memories, patterns, insticts of dinosaurs? It is possible that these are based, at least in part, on the discovery of dinosaur fossils, but humans didn't even evolve until the dinosaurs were long dead. So even if it were possible for "inherited memory" to include visual memories it wouldn't do so for dinosaurs.
- funcDropShadow 2y ago
  Why should inheritance stop at species boundaries?
  - krapp 2y ago
    It isn't a matter of "species boundaries," which aren't even really rigidly defined, so much as time, complexity and information compression. It doesn't seem likely that whatever primitive mammalian ancestor eventually evolved into primates, and then into humans, carried within it a coherent enough visual and behavioral memory of dinosaurs to have survived so many generations of mutation, eventually informing the modern idea of "dragons" as winged reptiles. And again, it isn't even true that there is a cross-cultural concept of "dragons" to begin with. It's a eurocentric myth, in that it assumes a Western concept of a "dragon" to be the default, and ignores any other cultural context in order to fit their mythologies into that mold.

mech422 2y ago

Thanks! >For spiders then there is an action pattern that upon certain stimulus they will use their spinnerets begin forming a web, first placing anchor points and gradually building it up with radial threads and spiral. I can sorta understand stimulus causing them to start making a web (sorta like stimulating a mammary can cause lactation) - but how do it 'know' to use a radial pattern rather then ah-hoc mess the black widows on my porch make? The 'ad-hoc' pattern seems like it would be more 'likely' then a nice pattern? Overall, I guess it just seems like a rather complex pattern/behavior? Also, I guess I have a more basic question of 'what is instinct' if its not some sort of 'memory'? People seem to have an 'instinct' of the mechanics of throwing a ball, yet we have wildly different abilities with regards to accuracy, 'form', distance/speed (due to muscalture?) - it just seems like we have an 'instinct' for the 'simple' mechanical movements but not for the more complex behavior like throwing a ball to hit a target ? Thanks again!

AQuantized 2y ago
The stimulus starts the fixed action pattern, but that action pattern includes the behavior to make the entire web, not just the start off the process. Different species of spider have different fixed action patterns (and different neurology underlying that, and different DNA underlying that neurology). I think throwing a ball is more learned, although some behaviors like grasping the ball may provided a fixed action foundation on which higher order learning builds. Baby humans have a grasp reflex that works in a similar way to the fixed action pattern described, but with a simpler action sequence. If you touch the palm of a toddler, they will instinctively tightly grasp. It's interesting that the grasp reflex disappears around 5 years old, so the fixed neuronal pattern is subsumed by higher order learned behavior.
- mech422 2y ago
  >>includes the behavior to make the entire web, not just the start off the process. Thats where I get stuck..the 'behavior' has to account for different sizes of webs (the spider might be in a tight space, or a more open space), etc. That just seems like an incredibly complex behavior to encode...Cells are supposedly 'simple' organisms but they manage to create/manage such complex behaviors...it's mind blowing.. Thanks!

hammyhavoc 2y ago

Adjacent, and you've probably seen it before, but you and others might be interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_psychoactive_drugs_on_animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_psychoactive_drugs_o... This is fascinating stuff.

mech422 2y ago
LOL - yeah, I remember seeing the spider ones and going "probably better then I could do stoned" :-P