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I always wonder how animals that aren't raised by parents know various things...like why do predators know bright colors are a 'warning' if they don't have pare

I always wonder how animals that aren't raised by parents know various things...like why do predators know bright colors are a 'warning' if they don't have parents to teach them? How do spiders know what their web 'should' look like (spider webs come in multiple styles...) People say 'instinct' by never mention what that means or how it works :-P

AQuantized 2y ago
There's an idea of 'fixed action patterns' where certain behaviors are encoded in the neurology of an animal, and triggered by certain stimulus. For spiders then there is an action pattern that upon certain stimulus they will use their spinnerets begin forming a web, first placing anchor points and gradually building it up with radial threads and spiral. The exact behavior differs by species such that they have different resulting patterns. It seems possible that there is an element of 'learning' beyond the basic pattern as well, even in seemingly very simple animals. I doubt the spiders have a mental model of what their web looks like as such, it's more evolutionary driven genetic behavior, a particular neuronal pattern encoding the action sequence rather than an underlying fundamental understanding.
- funcDropShadow 2y ago
  I've always wondered why so many different culture know some notion of a dragon. Is it possible that these are based on inherited memories, patterns, insticts of dinosaurs? I know this would be a wild leap but one my wonder.
  - krapp 2y ago
    The trick is that "some notion of a dragon" is incredibly vague, with "dragons" sharing very few commonalities between cultures. A European wyvern and Quetzalcoatl are almost nothing alike, yet people consider them both "dragons." >Is it possible that these are based on inherited memories, patterns, insticts of dinosaurs? It is possible that these are based, at least in part, on the discovery of dinosaur fossils, but humans didn't even evolve until the dinosaurs were long dead. So even if it were possible for "inherited memory" to include visual memories it wouldn't do so for dinosaurs.
    - funcDropShadow 2y ago
      Why should inheritance stop at species boundaries?
      - krapp 2y ago
        It isn't a matter of "species boundaries," which aren't even really rigidly defined, so much as time, complexity and information compression. It doesn't seem likely that whatever primitive mammalian ancestor eventually evolved into primates, and then into humans, carried within it a coherent enough visual and behavioral memory of dinosaurs to have survived so many generations of mutation, eventually informing the modern idea of "dragons" as winged reptiles. And again, it isn't even true that there is a cross-cultural concept of "dragons" to begin with. It's a eurocentric myth, in that it assumes a Western concept of a "dragon" to be the default, and ignores any other cultural context in order to fit their mythologies into that mold.
- mech422 2y ago
  Thanks! >For spiders then there is an action pattern that upon certain stimulus they will use their spinnerets begin forming a web, first placing anchor points and gradually building it up with radial threads and spiral. I can sorta understand stimulus causing them to start making a web (sorta like stimulating a mammary can cause lactation) - but how do it 'know' to use a radial pattern rather then ah-hoc mess the black widows on my porch make? The 'ad-hoc' pattern seems like it would be more 'likely' then a nice pattern? Overall, I guess it just seems like a rather complex pattern/behavior? Also, I guess I have a more basic question of 'what is instinct' if its not some sort of 'memory'? People seem to have an 'instinct' of the mechanics of throwing a ball, yet we have wildly different abilities with regards to accuracy, 'form', distance/speed (due to muscalture?) - it just seems like we have an 'instinct' for the 'simple' mechanical movements but not for the more complex behavior like throwing a ball to hit a target ? Thanks again!
  - AQuantized 2y ago
    The stimulus starts the fixed action pattern, but that action pattern includes the behavior to make the entire web, not just the start off the process. Different species of spider have different fixed action patterns (and different neurology underlying that, and different DNA underlying that neurology). I think throwing a ball is more learned, although some behaviors like grasping the ball may provided a fixed action foundation on which higher order learning builds. Baby humans have a grasp reflex that works in a similar way to the fixed action pattern described, but with a simpler action sequence. If you touch the palm of a toddler, they will instinctively tightly grasp. It's interesting that the grasp reflex disappears around 5 years old, so the fixed neuronal pattern is subsumed by higher order learned behavior.
    - mech422 2y ago
      >>includes the behavior to make the entire web, not just the start off the process. Thats where I get stuck..the 'behavior' has to account for different sizes of webs (the spider might be in a tight space, or a more open space), etc. That just seems like an incredibly complex behavior to encode...Cells are supposedly 'simple' organisms but they manage to create/manage such complex behaviors...it's mind blowing.. Thanks!
- hammyhavoc 2y ago
  Adjacent, and you've probably seen it before, but you and others might be interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_psychoactive_drugs_on_animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_psychoactive_drugs_o... This is fascinating stuff.
  - mech422 2y ago
    LOL - yeah, I remember seeing the spider ones and going "probably better then I could do stoned" :-P
euroderf 2y ago
Sidenote: My brother the biologist tells me that cats do not instinctively understand that heights can be dangerous; they have to learn it by trial & error.
- mech422 2y ago
  Wow - that surprises me - I would have thought heights would be an 'instinct' thing - like water (animals know to try not to drown...)
  - quectophoton 2y ago
    To be fair, animals who don't try to avoid drowning, are more likely to drown before being able to reproduce. Probably even by trying to drink water or wash their face, since both mouth and nose usually lead to lungs (I bet there exists some weird animal where that's not the case). Also, humans don't instinctively understand that fire can be dangerous, so there's that.
    - mech422 2y ago
      Heh I didn't realize people don't have an instinct about fire. I always thought kids touching hot stoves/fire was because their hands touched it before their brains registered 'hot! ouch!'
  - randomdata 2y ago
    Nine lives coupled with always landing on their feet didn't leave much evolutionary pressure to be afraid of heights.
    - mech422 2y ago
      LOL :-)
Llamamoe 2y ago
Most DNA is non-coding and encodes tweaks to which genes are expressed where and how. The same way evolution evolved reliable formation of complex body arrangements out of stochastic molecular processes and variations in gene expression based on location, nearby cells and their own signalling, it's done the same for neurons which are far from a homogenous mixture and thus can learn some things("instinctual behaviour") easier than others, all the way to it happening essentially automatically.
- mech422 2y ago
  I'm amazed by how cells know what to grow 'into' as well - especially since stem cells seem to be able to grow into just about any body part? >>and thus can learn some things("instinctual behaviour") easier than others I don't understand this - Isn't 'instinctual behaviour' something you don't have to learn? Also, I wonder if there's a limit to how complex a behavior can be 'encoded'? like bright colored animals == poisonous. That requires being able to tell a say a toad from a bird, what a color is, what colors = poison, etc? That seems like a pretty complex behavior...Do we have any idea what the limit is for complex behaviors in genes? Thanks!
  - Llamamoe 2y ago
    To be clear, I'm not an expert, but the way I imagine it is as genetically encoded biases to process information differently based on its colour, position, which neuron(s) or receptors it's coming in from, etc. that don't necessarily encode the entire neural circuitry for a behavior, but make it automatically learnable without the need for full-blown experiences, just as a consequence of the neurons developing and being exposed to normal environmental information at all.
    - mech422 2y ago
      I guess I just get floored that such complex behaviors can be encoded. Like how some people seem to 'just know' how to draw and I can't draw a straight line with a ruler...
  - Terr_ 2y ago
qarl 2y ago
> People say 'instinct' by never mention what that means or how it works :-P Have you never been afraid of spiders or snakes? https://www.cbs.mpg.de/Fear-of-spiders-and-snakes-is-deeply-embedded-in-us https://www.cbs.mpg.de/Fear-of-spiders-and-snakes-is-deeply-...
im3w1l 2y ago
I don't think this isn't fully known. Neural science has long been a fascination of mine and the conclusion I've come to is that it can happen in two ways. The first is direct. In order for this to happen there must be a stable representation of the input and output. In this case, bright colors must have a stable representation, and fear must have a stable representation. This gives the opportunity for neurons to know how to connect the two so that one leads to the other. How does the individual neuron do that? The body is full of chemical gradients and they function kind of similar to landmarks that can be used for navigation by the growing neuron. The second is indirect. In this case there is nothing directly encoding the connection between brightness and fear, instead due to factors of the brain structure and the environment the animal exists in it is highly likely to learn the association. For instance the low-level visual processing and fear processing areas of the brain may be almost but not quite wired up. Now there may be a common insect that is brightly colored and just a little bit poisonous. Due to the innate curiousity the animal will try to eat the insect and get an upset stomach. The dormant connection is then molded to associate these two things.

AQuantized 2y ago

There's an idea of 'fixed action patterns' where certain behaviors are encoded in the neurology of an animal, and triggered by certain stimulus. For spiders then there is an action pattern that upon certain stimulus they will use their spinnerets begin forming a web, first placing anchor points and gradually building it up with radial threads and spiral. The exact behavior differs by species such that they have different resulting patterns. It seems possible that there is an element of 'learning' beyond the basic pattern as well, even in seemingly very simple animals. I doubt the spiders have a mental model of what their web looks like as such, it's more evolutionary driven genetic behavior, a particular neuronal pattern encoding the action sequence rather than an underlying fundamental understanding.

funcDropShadow 2y ago
I've always wondered why so many different culture know some notion of a dragon. Is it possible that these are based on inherited memories, patterns, insticts of dinosaurs? I know this would be a wild leap but one my wonder.
- krapp 2y ago
  The trick is that "some notion of a dragon" is incredibly vague, with "dragons" sharing very few commonalities between cultures. A European wyvern and Quetzalcoatl are almost nothing alike, yet people consider them both "dragons." >Is it possible that these are based on inherited memories, patterns, insticts of dinosaurs? It is possible that these are based, at least in part, on the discovery of dinosaur fossils, but humans didn't even evolve until the dinosaurs were long dead. So even if it were possible for "inherited memory" to include visual memories it wouldn't do so for dinosaurs.
  - funcDropShadow 2y ago
    Why should inheritance stop at species boundaries?
    - krapp 2y ago
      It isn't a matter of "species boundaries," which aren't even really rigidly defined, so much as time, complexity and information compression. It doesn't seem likely that whatever primitive mammalian ancestor eventually evolved into primates, and then into humans, carried within it a coherent enough visual and behavioral memory of dinosaurs to have survived so many generations of mutation, eventually informing the modern idea of "dragons" as winged reptiles. And again, it isn't even true that there is a cross-cultural concept of "dragons" to begin with. It's a eurocentric myth, in that it assumes a Western concept of a "dragon" to be the default, and ignores any other cultural context in order to fit their mythologies into that mold.
mech422 2y ago
Thanks! >For spiders then there is an action pattern that upon certain stimulus they will use their spinnerets begin forming a web, first placing anchor points and gradually building it up with radial threads and spiral. I can sorta understand stimulus causing them to start making a web (sorta like stimulating a mammary can cause lactation) - but how do it 'know' to use a radial pattern rather then ah-hoc mess the black widows on my porch make? The 'ad-hoc' pattern seems like it would be more 'likely' then a nice pattern? Overall, I guess it just seems like a rather complex pattern/behavior? Also, I guess I have a more basic question of 'what is instinct' if its not some sort of 'memory'? People seem to have an 'instinct' of the mechanics of throwing a ball, yet we have wildly different abilities with regards to accuracy, 'form', distance/speed (due to muscalture?) - it just seems like we have an 'instinct' for the 'simple' mechanical movements but not for the more complex behavior like throwing a ball to hit a target ? Thanks again!
- AQuantized 2y ago
  The stimulus starts the fixed action pattern, but that action pattern includes the behavior to make the entire web, not just the start off the process. Different species of spider have different fixed action patterns (and different neurology underlying that, and different DNA underlying that neurology). I think throwing a ball is more learned, although some behaviors like grasping the ball may provided a fixed action foundation on which higher order learning builds. Baby humans have a grasp reflex that works in a similar way to the fixed action pattern described, but with a simpler action sequence. If you touch the palm of a toddler, they will instinctively tightly grasp. It's interesting that the grasp reflex disappears around 5 years old, so the fixed neuronal pattern is subsumed by higher order learned behavior.
  - mech422 2y ago
    >>includes the behavior to make the entire web, not just the start off the process. Thats where I get stuck..the 'behavior' has to account for different sizes of webs (the spider might be in a tight space, or a more open space), etc. That just seems like an incredibly complex behavior to encode...Cells are supposedly 'simple' organisms but they manage to create/manage such complex behaviors...it's mind blowing.. Thanks!
hammyhavoc 2y ago
Adjacent, and you've probably seen it before, but you and others might be interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_psychoactive_drugs_on_animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effect_of_psychoactive_drugs_o... This is fascinating stuff.
- mech422 2y ago
  LOL - yeah, I remember seeing the spider ones and going "probably better then I could do stoned" :-P

euroderf 2y ago

Sidenote: My brother the biologist tells me that cats do not instinctively understand that heights can be dangerous; they have to learn it by trial & error.

mech422 2y ago
Wow - that surprises me - I would have thought heights would be an 'instinct' thing - like water (animals know to try not to drown...)
- quectophoton 2y ago
  To be fair, animals who don't try to avoid drowning, are more likely to drown before being able to reproduce. Probably even by trying to drink water or wash their face, since both mouth and nose usually lead to lungs (I bet there exists some weird animal where that's not the case). Also, humans don't instinctively understand that fire can be dangerous, so there's that.
  - mech422 2y ago
    Heh I didn't realize people don't have an instinct about fire. I always thought kids touching hot stoves/fire was because their hands touched it before their brains registered 'hot! ouch!'
- randomdata 2y ago
  Nine lives coupled with always landing on their feet didn't leave much evolutionary pressure to be afraid of heights.
  - mech422 2y ago
    LOL :-)

Llamamoe 2y ago

Most DNA is non-coding and encodes tweaks to which genes are expressed where and how. The same way evolution evolved reliable formation of complex body arrangements out of stochastic molecular processes and variations in gene expression based on location, nearby cells and their own signalling, it's done the same for neurons which are far from a homogenous mixture and thus can learn some things("instinctual behaviour") easier than others, all the way to it happening essentially automatically.

mech422 2y ago
I'm amazed by how cells know what to grow 'into' as well - especially since stem cells seem to be able to grow into just about any body part? >>and thus can learn some things("instinctual behaviour") easier than others I don't understand this - Isn't 'instinctual behaviour' something you don't have to learn? Also, I wonder if there's a limit to how complex a behavior can be 'encoded'? like bright colored animals == poisonous. That requires being able to tell a say a toad from a bird, what a color is, what colors = poison, etc? That seems like a pretty complex behavior...Do we have any idea what the limit is for complex behaviors in genes? Thanks!
- Llamamoe 2y ago
  To be clear, I'm not an expert, but the way I imagine it is as genetically encoded biases to process information differently based on its colour, position, which neuron(s) or receptors it's coming in from, etc. that don't necessarily encode the entire neural circuitry for a behavior, but make it automatically learnable without the need for full-blown experiences, just as a consequence of the neurons developing and being exposed to normal environmental information at all.
  - mech422 2y ago
    I guess I just get floored that such complex behaviors can be encoded. Like how some people seem to 'just know' how to draw and I can't draw a straight line with a ruler...
- Terr_ 2y ago

qarl 2y ago

> People say 'instinct' by never mention what that means or how it works :-P Have you never been afraid of spiders or snakes? https://www.cbs.mpg.de/Fear-of-spiders-and-snakes-is-deeply-embedded-in-us https://www.cbs.mpg.de/Fear-of-spiders-and-snakes-is-deeply-...

im3w1l 2y ago

I don't think this isn't fully known. Neural science has long been a fascination of mine and the conclusion I've come to is that it can happen in two ways. The first is direct. In order for this to happen there must be a stable representation of the input and output. In this case, bright colors must have a stable representation, and fear must have a stable representation. This gives the opportunity for neurons to know how to connect the two so that one leads to the other. How does the individual neuron do that? The body is full of chemical gradients and they function kind of similar to landmarks that can be used for navigation by the growing neuron. The second is indirect. In this case there is nothing directly encoding the connection between brightness and fear, instead due to factors of the brain structure and the environment the animal exists in it is highly likely to learn the association. For instance the low-level visual processing and fear processing areas of the brain may be almost but not quite wired up. Now there may be a common insect that is brightly colored and just a little bit poisonous. Due to the innate curiousity the animal will try to eat the insect and get an upset stomach. The dormant connection is then molded to associate these two things.