4 ms·

The Dutch Hunger cohort study is highly suspect. However, the idea that someone is literally starving to death just before or during gestation having some knock

by ch4s3 2y ago

The Dutch Hunger cohort study is highly suspect. However, the idea that someone is literally starving to death just before or during gestation having some knock on genetic effects is not all that surprising. But again, the phrase "inherited trauma", as it's typically used is bunk. Also the phrase "a heritable memory" is kind of nonsense even with respect to epigenetic changes. Again what we're talking about with epigenetics is up or down regulation of your existing genes, not some new information being encoded.

margalabargala 2y ago
I found the research about the Chinese Suihua cohort to be more compelling. I fully agree that someone starving to death right around the time of pregnancy could have some knock on effects; this is discussing changes in the following generation, the ones that are tens of years removed from the starvation event. > Also the phrase "a heritable memory" is kind of nonsense even with respect to epigenetic changes. Again what we're talking about with epigenetics is up or down regulation of your existing genes, not some new information being encoded. I wonder if you are missing the forest for the trees here somewhat. We're talking about the up/down regulation of specific genes based on specific methylation patterns in DNA that are present only because of some event that occurred. It's not memory in the sense of "I remember what I had for breakfast this morning", but it's memory in the sense of "these methylation patterns exist because their genesis was triggered by a specific event in the last few generations". That IS new information being encoded, just in a more fuzzy way than with neurons or computer memory. I would need more convincing to think the phrases you mention are nonsense/bunk. Could you perhaps articulate the definitions you're using for "trauma" and "memory"? I think we are using different definitions, as it seems clear what is meant by the phrases as used. EDIT: what issue do you take with the Dutch hunger study? I hadn't heard criticism about it before, and I just googled "dutch hunger cohort study criticism" and found nothing.
- moralestapia 2y ago
  >just googled "dutch hunger cohort study criticism" and found nothing x2 @ch4s3 is making some pretty strong claims here and there, for which I do not see the evidence either. Don't take me wrong, I don't mean to suggest he's just being a quack; but rather, this is an invitation for him to substantiate his knowledge. The more we learn the better, :).
  - ch4s3 2y ago
    So check this study out[1] it uses the Dutch hunger winter families cohort day as a starting point, but uses a web based form to follow up on obesity. This is obviously not going to yield great results. And the findings show that only the adult children of famine exposed fathers are more likely to be obese which seems a little add. It has nearly 600 citations. My criticism is that a lot of studies based on the data to lazy things like this, draw big conclusions, and get a lot of citations but there just isn’t much to them. [1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C39&q=%E2%80%9CDutch+hunger+winter%E2%80%9D+%E2%80%9Ctransgenerational%E2%80%9D&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1718673559582&u=%23p%3DI46hRi2YqfAJ https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C39&q=%E2... Wooos, posted the wrong link earlier. https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1471-0528.12136 https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1471-0...
    - moralestapia 2y ago
      The link you posted is a list of "About 1,870 results". I really don't have the time or energy to go through all of them, tbh. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
      - ch4s3 2y ago
        Sorry, here’s the correct link https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1471-0528.12136 https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1471-0...
- ch4s3 2y ago
  I've never read the Chinese Suihua cohort study so I'm not going to speculate or comment on it. I think "in the last few generations" is a little speculative. There's strong evidence for epigenetic changes being passed from parents, but going further back the evidence is much weaker. > what issue do you take with the Dutch hunger study It's a really narrow study of a rather genetically homogeneous group picked from a really small geographic area and it has all of the issues of any retrospective study. The outcome could just be random chance. If you look at any small closely related group you're just going to find some sort of weird clustering, even if it varies in that group. If similar epigenetic markers showed up in other populations with similar well documented circumstances it would be stronger.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

by ch4s3 2y ago

margalabargala 2y ago

I found the research about the Chinese Suihua cohort to be more compelling. I fully agree that someone starving to death right around the time of pregnancy could have some knock on effects; this is discussing changes in the following generation, the ones that are tens of years removed from the starvation event. > Also the phrase "a heritable memory" is kind of nonsense even with respect to epigenetic changes. Again what we're talking about with epigenetics is up or down regulation of your existing genes, not some new information being encoded. I wonder if you are missing the forest for the trees here somewhat. We're talking about the up/down regulation of specific genes based on specific methylation patterns in DNA that are present only because of some event that occurred. It's not memory in the sense of "I remember what I had for breakfast this morning", but it's memory in the sense of "these methylation patterns exist because their genesis was triggered by a specific event in the last few generations". That IS new information being encoded, just in a more fuzzy way than with neurons or computer memory. I would need more convincing to think the phrases you mention are nonsense/bunk. Could you perhaps articulate the definitions you're using for "trauma" and "memory"? I think we are using different definitions, as it seems clear what is meant by the phrases as used. EDIT: what issue do you take with the Dutch hunger study? I hadn't heard criticism about it before, and I just googled "dutch hunger cohort study criticism" and found nothing.

moralestapia 2y ago
>just googled "dutch hunger cohort study criticism" and found nothing x2 @ch4s3 is making some pretty strong claims here and there, for which I do not see the evidence either. Don't take me wrong, I don't mean to suggest he's just being a quack; but rather, this is an invitation for him to substantiate his knowledge. The more we learn the better, :).
- ch4s3 2y ago
  So check this study out[1] it uses the Dutch hunger winter families cohort day as a starting point, but uses a web based form to follow up on obesity. This is obviously not going to yield great results. And the findings show that only the adult children of famine exposed fathers are more likely to be obese which seems a little add. It has nearly 600 citations. My criticism is that a lot of studies based on the data to lazy things like this, draw big conclusions, and get a lot of citations but there just isn’t much to them. [1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C39&q=%E2%80%9CDutch+hunger+winter%E2%80%9D+%E2%80%9Ctransgenerational%E2%80%9D&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1718673559582&u=%23p%3DI46hRi2YqfAJ https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C39&q=%E2... Wooos, posted the wrong link earlier. https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1471-0528.12136 https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1471-0...
  - moralestapia 2y ago
    The link you posted is a list of "About 1,870 results". I really don't have the time or energy to go through all of them, tbh. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    - ch4s3 2y ago
      Sorry, here’s the correct link https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1471-0528.12136 https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1471-0...
ch4s3 2y ago
I've never read the Chinese Suihua cohort study so I'm not going to speculate or comment on it. I think "in the last few generations" is a little speculative. There's strong evidence for epigenetic changes being passed from parents, but going further back the evidence is much weaker. > what issue do you take with the Dutch hunger study It's a really narrow study of a rather genetically homogeneous group picked from a really small geographic area and it has all of the issues of any retrospective study. The outcome could just be random chance. If you look at any small closely related group you're just going to find some sort of weird clustering, even if it varies in that group. If similar epigenetic markers showed up in other populations with similar well documented circumstances it would be stronger.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]