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Even if there was no Bible, it is clear as crystal to anybody who thinks about it that humans are in a category of our own. Any animal that could do even a thou

Even if there was no Bible, it is clear as crystal to anybody who thinks about it that humans are in a category of our own. Any animal that could do even a thousandth of what people are capable of would be the most extraordinary animal. It is also crystal clear that animals have consciousness. A person would have to be without much consciousness themselves to think otherwise, in my opinion.

maxbond 2y ago
Have you, as an adult, had a relationship with an animal, like a cat or a dog? I was thinking about this once, why I believe my cat was conscious and was a person. I came to the conclusion that the relationship was a sort of epistemology, and that I knew my cat was a person, had a personality, and loved me because I understood the relationship. When my cat was passing, all they wanted to do was spend time with me. I realized this was true not just of my cat, but with every human in my life, as well. How do I know my friends are people? How do I know they care for me? Because I have a relationship with them and I understand the relationship. That's not the sort of factual knowledge I can express and transfer to you. But it's real all the same.
- bowsamic 2y ago
  People swear they have emotional relationships with their pet lizards, who totally lack the part of the brain that can feel emotions…
  - maxbond 2y ago
    Zhuangzi: See how the minnows come out and dart around as they please! That is what fish enjoy! Huizi: You're not a fish - how do you know what fish enjoy? Zhuangzi: You're not I, so how do you know that I don't know what fish enjoy?
    - bowsamic 2y ago
      Oh then demonstrate your supernatural abilities to know what a lizard is feeling to us
      - maxbond 2y ago
        I've no such ability (and never claimed to), but I'll share what I can. A few years ago I was standing on my balcony. I saw a lizard sunning itself on a rock, a story below. On impulse I made a shadow puppet of a bird, and that lizard took off running. I don't know what the emotional experience of a lizard is like, but I'm as certain as I am of anything that the lizard feared for it's life, whatever fear means to a lizard. Maybe fear isn't an emotion to a lizard, maybe it's more like a state of mind. I have no idea, that question is unanswerable. I've had mouse problems many times. I can tell you that mice have distinct personalities. I catch them with live traps and release them. Some of them leave immediately when the box opens. Others cower and must be coaxed out. They have favored places and such. If you study then and learn their habits, you can place traps very effectively. There was a mouse that would go behind my toaster and chew on stuff. The first time I walked over to see what the sound was, they threw themselves off the counter and tumbled down the spice rack. The second time they darted out and climbed down the spice rack. The third time, they came out at a relaxed pace, easy as can be, and gracefully climbed the power chord down to the floor. Presumably they learned I was all bark and no bite.
      - bowsamic 2y ago
        Why am I being flagged for comments that should not be flagged at all?
        AnimalMuppet 2y ago
        From the site guidelines: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. > Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. > Eschew flamebait. > Please don't post shallow dismissals... That's why that comment was flagged. (To me personally, your comment was harsh enough to be worthy of downvoting, though I'm not sure I would have flagged it.) Also from the guidelines: > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.
  - zzo38computer 2y ago
    Scientists may have made mistakes in the past, what is "emotion" and if emotion is just one part of the brain (which lizards lack). Furthermore, having emotions is not necessarily same like humans emotions, anyways. My guess is probably lizards (and insects) do have emotions, but not same like humans emotions (although, what are the similarities and the differences, is a question that remains, and you would have to know what is the proper way to measure such a thing). I am not saying that I am necessarily correct about any of this, but you should not be so certain them the other way either.

maxbond 2y ago

Have you, as an adult, had a relationship with an animal, like a cat or a dog? I was thinking about this once, why I believe my cat was conscious and was a person. I came to the conclusion that the relationship was a sort of epistemology, and that I knew my cat was a person, had a personality, and loved me because I understood the relationship. When my cat was passing, all they wanted to do was spend time with me. I realized this was true not just of my cat, but with every human in my life, as well. How do I know my friends are people? How do I know they care for me? Because I have a relationship with them and I understand the relationship. That's not the sort of factual knowledge I can express and transfer to you. But it's real all the same.

bowsamic 2y ago
People swear they have emotional relationships with their pet lizards, who totally lack the part of the brain that can feel emotions…
- maxbond 2y ago
  Zhuangzi: See how the minnows come out and dart around as they please! That is what fish enjoy! Huizi: You're not a fish - how do you know what fish enjoy? Zhuangzi: You're not I, so how do you know that I don't know what fish enjoy?
  - bowsamic 2y ago
    Oh then demonstrate your supernatural abilities to know what a lizard is feeling to us
    - maxbond 2y ago
      I've no such ability (and never claimed to), but I'll share what I can. A few years ago I was standing on my balcony. I saw a lizard sunning itself on a rock, a story below. On impulse I made a shadow puppet of a bird, and that lizard took off running. I don't know what the emotional experience of a lizard is like, but I'm as certain as I am of anything that the lizard feared for it's life, whatever fear means to a lizard. Maybe fear isn't an emotion to a lizard, maybe it's more like a state of mind. I have no idea, that question is unanswerable. I've had mouse problems many times. I can tell you that mice have distinct personalities. I catch them with live traps and release them. Some of them leave immediately when the box opens. Others cower and must be coaxed out. They have favored places and such. If you study then and learn their habits, you can place traps very effectively. There was a mouse that would go behind my toaster and chew on stuff. The first time I walked over to see what the sound was, they threw themselves off the counter and tumbled down the spice rack. The second time they darted out and climbed down the spice rack. The third time, they came out at a relaxed pace, easy as can be, and gracefully climbed the power chord down to the floor. Presumably they learned I was all bark and no bite.
    - bowsamic 2y ago
      Why am I being flagged for comments that should not be flagged at all?
      - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
        From the site guidelines: > Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. > Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. > Eschew flamebait. > Please don't post shallow dismissals... That's why that comment was flagged. (To me personally, your comment was harsh enough to be worthy of downvoting, though I'm not sure I would have flagged it.) Also from the guidelines: > Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.
- zzo38computer 2y ago
  Scientists may have made mistakes in the past, what is "emotion" and if emotion is just one part of the brain (which lizards lack). Furthermore, having emotions is not necessarily same like humans emotions, anyways. My guess is probably lizards (and insects) do have emotions, but not same like humans emotions (although, what are the similarities and the differences, is a question that remains, and you would have to know what is the proper way to measure such a thing). I am not saying that I am necessarily correct about any of this, but you should not be so certain them the other way either.