3 ms·

I knew we were going off a cliff the moment GitHub did their big client-side rendering rework and made it effectively impossible to review large PRs in the web

I knew we were going off a cliff the moment GitHub did their big client-side rendering rework and made it effectively impossible to review large PRs in the web UI. This has all become too complicated as is traditional. Every JS framework I have ever used ultimately suffered the same fate. The only web framework that works long-term is whatever is documented on MDN. Something approximating PHP + AJAX has always been the correct path. If you are doing things like shipping DOM across websockets, I think you may have missed an important step somewhere along the way.

lovethevoid 2y ago
React, vue, and svelte all have MDN docs. So not sure that’s the best way of determining a better route for JS frameworks.
- 38 2y ago
  no, they dont.
  - Jowsey 2y ago
    https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/Tools_and_testing/Client-side_JavaScript_frameworks https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/Tools_and_tes... ?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - 38 2y ago
      https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Cunningham#%22Cunningham's_Law%22 https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Cunningham#%22Cunningham's_L...
graypegg 2y ago
I would like to see a “framework of opinions” somewhere. 0 actual software, just documentation for standard JS and browser APIs organized in a way resembling framework documentation. The current style of web platform documentation tends to resemble a big list of objects, or the most basic and slowest introduction to web development possible. Something in-between, with chapters like “templating” or “data fetching” that focused on some opinionated but framework less structure, would be nice.
- davidmurdoch 2y ago
  That would be incredibly interesting. I'm sure it would be one of the most polarizing "frameworks" though.
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  This is a cool idea. If I read it correctly, are you suggesting that MDN create a parallel doc tree, like "web apps", that introduces HTML/CSS/JS with the specific aim of building vanilla web apps? I am sure that it would be popular.
  - graypegg 2y ago
    Yeah! Though a similar tone to framework documentation, so it would have to declare some opinions on things (Templating must use the <template> element and custom elements, data fetching outside of the initial load must use fetch(), etc) and the surrounding glue code you have to use to compose all of these APIs together is described to you. (rather than just describing the APIs, like most of MDN's docs) I think there's easily enough API surface area to cover every part of a front-end web application without any dependencies.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

lovethevoid 2y ago

React, vue, and svelte all have MDN docs. So not sure that’s the best way of determining a better route for JS frameworks.

38 2y ago
no, they dont.
- Jowsey 2y ago
  https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/Tools_and_testing/Client-side_JavaScript_frameworks https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn/Tools_and_tes... ?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - 38 2y ago
    https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Cunningham#%22Cunningham's_Law%22 https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Cunningham#%22Cunningham's_L...

graypegg 2y ago

I would like to see a “framework of opinions” somewhere. 0 actual software, just documentation for standard JS and browser APIs organized in a way resembling framework documentation. The current style of web platform documentation tends to resemble a big list of objects, or the most basic and slowest introduction to web development possible. Something in-between, with chapters like “templating” or “data fetching” that focused on some opinionated but framework less structure, would be nice.

davidmurdoch 2y ago
That would be incredibly interesting. I'm sure it would be one of the most polarizing "frameworks" though.
throwaway2037 2y ago
This is a cool idea. If I read it correctly, are you suggesting that MDN create a parallel doc tree, like "web apps", that introduces HTML/CSS/JS with the specific aim of building vanilla web apps? I am sure that it would be popular.
- graypegg 2y ago
  Yeah! Though a similar tone to framework documentation, so it would have to declare some opinions on things (Templating must use the <template> element and custom elements, data fetching outside of the initial load must use fetch(), etc) and the surrounding glue code you have to use to compose all of these APIs together is described to you. (rather than just describing the APIs, like most of MDN's docs) I think there's easily enough API surface area to cover every part of a front-end web application without any dependencies.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]