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As an engineer that relies on plastics in my product design, I’ve been wondering more and more if we’re creating the next global environmental disaster after cl

As an engineer that relies on plastics in my product design, I’ve been wondering more and more if we’re creating the next global environmental disaster after climate change with our use of plastics. I recently saw a video of someone restoring a 100 year old vegetable shredder, and with some rust removal and fresh paint the thing was good as new. Of course it was all metal. Then I looked at Amazon for vegetable shredders and they’re almost all plastic. We could make our products out of more metal or all metal. Even so-called exotic metals like titanium are relatively abundant, and new manufacturing processes are lowering the cost of those parts. But we use so many plastic films that get used once and can’t be recycled, as have so many plastic products that fall apart and get sent to landfills because recycling is kind of a lie anyway. If you go to a big box store like Target, right at the entrance you see shelves of cheap plastic junk meant as some sort of novelty to be used once or twice and then forgotten and thrown out. Companies like Shien sell the cheapes polyester clothing possible which falls apart in to pieces which quickly become microplastics. EVs are supposed to save us from climate change but in doing so they’re delivering us faster wearing tires releasing more microparticles in to our environment. And I suspect that if we look at production, it’s accelerating. So just like when atmospheric carbon passed 300ppm and we said “what happens at 400ppm and higher”, what happens when ambient microplastics double, triple, or quadruple current levels? What would it look like to cut plastic production today? How could we even prepare to do that?

supportengineer 2y ago
I spend a lot of time reading /r/collapse, but I am pretty sure there won't be a "next global environmental disaster after climate change".
- luckman212 2y ago
  That's good news! I don't think I could stomach another global disaster after the climate fails. /s
- TaylorAlexander 2y ago
  Well maybe but obviously that subreddit is going to be biased towards stories of collapse, rather than telling the whole story. Those stories are terrifying and I’m also of the opinion that things are worse than we realize, but I also think that despite the many human and environmental catastrophes that climate change will continue to cause, society will persist.
- holonsphere 2y ago
  Read up on the collapse of the AMOC if you havent already heard about it.
crazygringo 2y ago
> We could make our products out of more metal or all metal. What's interesting is that a large part of this was the move to "ergonomic" kitchen tools, which the kitchenware brand OXO has been a big part of. Because you're right -- kitchen tools used to be made out of metal and wood. Metal could be bent back into place and resharpened. Pieces of wood could easily be replaced. Then OXO decided that small metal handles like the one on the all-metal classic vegetable peeler you or I might have grown up with [1] weren't usable by people with hand grip/coordination issues, decided to use a bicycle handlebar grip as a model, and invented their now-famous OXO vegetable peeler [2] with a big rubber grip. And then slowly everything started to follow that aesthetic -- most kitchen tools are made out of plastic, rubber, silicone, and nylon, with "bulbous" handles. The rise of nonstick cookware is partly responsible for the trend as well, necessitating plastic/nylon/silicone turners, spoons, etc. I'm not sure what I think about it. On the one hand, my kitchen almost feels like it's made for children, with all these big grippy things. I worked in a kitchen in Spain once where all the tools were probably 50 or 100 years old, and thought -- oh this is a kitchen for adults! On the other hand, modern kitchen tools seem to be much safer, and usable by a larger proportion of the population -- especially the elderly. So I can't really see that as a bad thing. [1] amazon.com/Linden-Sweden-Original-Vegetable-Peeler/dp/B00176JEY4 [2] https://www.amazon.com/OXO-Good-Grips-Swivel-Peeler/dp/B00004OCIP https://www.amazon.com/OXO-Good-Grips-Swivel-Peeler/dp/B0000...
- TaylorAlexander 2y ago
  It’s definitely an interesting notion. I would also say that there must have been some correlation between wider availability of plastics and brands like OXO using them for production. They might say it’s a nicer tool to hold, and maybe it is, but plastics are also much, much cheaper to manufacture and need to be replaced more often, so they’re great for corporate profits.
nostromo 2y ago
Plastics will get more expensive as we use less and less oil. Plastics are basically a waste byproduct from the energy industry. As we use less oil, there will be less plastic trying to find a use and flooding the supply of plastics. When prices rise, a lot of single use plastics, like water bottles, will be uneconomical.
- siffin 2y ago
  Completely wrong, "With gasoline’s days numbered, oil companies are sending huge amounts of their production to chemical plants for plastic." We're gonna get MORE plastic when we use less oil. Always follow the profits. https://www.barrons.com/articles/shell-chevron-oil-chemicals-plastics-d75f8fee https://www.barrons.com/articles/shell-chevron-oil-chemicals...
mxmilkiib 2y ago
Nanoplastics are worse, imho
scotty79 2y ago
paint is also plastic
- TaylorAlexander 2y ago
  Yeah good point! We’re covering everything in plastic. The Sherwin Williams logo was more honest than we ever wanted it to be. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherwin-Williams#/media/File%3ASherwin_Williams.svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherwin-Williams#/media/File...
- timschmidt 2y ago
  That's a great point. Japan black is another metal finish which is often petroleum based. There are non-paint metal finishing techniques like anodizing, shellac, enamel, plating with metals or alloys less prone to oxidization, etc.
londons_explore 2y ago
Nearly all metals are toxic to some extent if ingested. Lead and mercury are famously toxic. But chromium (a component of stainless steel) is rather toxic too, and even copper (used widely in piping and wiring) isn't all that good for you. Nearly all metals will dissolve slightly into food or water they come into contact with. It really isn't clear that metals pose less health risks than plastics.
- TaylorAlexander 2y ago
  Well, lead and mercury aren’t typical engineering metals. Iron seems fine and actually good for you as long as the dose isn’t too high. Good point on stainless - would be interesting to see what is worse for us in practice based on dosage - chromium from stainless (probably minute quantities) or microplastic. Then there’s aluminum, which seems to be safe but I think science is continuing to develop on that. Then there’s titanium which is still too expensive for normal consumer goods but I think there’s room for that to go down with investment. For example Apple now uses titanium in the iPhone. I think engineering metals have much less influence on the environment than plastics do, but I’m very in favor of more study. My point is that I think this is something we really need to be thinking about. Right now engineering as a field doesn’t spend much time thinking about environmental harms from plastic in normal goods, and we might want to spend more time on that.
  - londons_explore 2y ago
    Aluminium is fairly poisonous too: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelford_water_pollution_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelford_water_pollution_in... And this study suggests aluminium in the brain might be cause (or effect) of autism, Alzheimer's, and various other neurological conditions: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-64734-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-64734-6 (Sulphates, acetates and oxides form really easily from contact with food and the environment)
    - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
      Well the first link is a massive chemical spill which is usually bad, but doesn’t say much about the effects of aluminum in everyday objects. The latter I’m aware of as we have Alzheimer’s in my family and I work in the machine shop with aluminum quite often. I do wear eye and respiratory protection but I also recently researched it and it seems the link between Alzheimer’s and aluminum is still quite unclear and not firmly established. But as I’ve said in a few replies now I’m all for study of what the systemic harms of each are. If plastics cause harm and metals cause harm then the real question is what is the nature and magnitude of those harms. I think this requires more careful study. My point is that it may be time to look at plastic pollution the way we look at CO2 pollution.
pojzon 2y ago
We did nt use plastic as often as we use now in the 50s. After that the oil lobby shifted the world into that horrendous path. All of current issues we have now could be explained pretty simply by human greed. Ps. This year we double the amount of plastic due to the shift into electric cars. That oil has to be used for something.
1970-01-01 2y ago
I think you're looking too hard for a material issue. Plastic kitchen utensils can last just long as metal. Really. I have several plastic strainers from the 80s that are still in use, and several plastic handled knives from 2000s that feel great in my hand. I've also thrown away metal ice cream scoops (yes from Amazon) months after purchase because they became pitted with rust. (And nobody want's rusty ice cream!) The hidden problem is our throw-away economy. Things are just designed to fail now, because everyone want us to simply keep buying.
- Obscurity4340 2y ago
  > plastic can last as long as metal Is that the issue? It seems more like plastics wearing away from use not to the point of it losing functionality but being constantly exposed to plastics in your food because all the implements are plasticd

supportengineer 2y ago

I spend a lot of time reading /r/collapse, but I am pretty sure there won't be a "next global environmental disaster after climate change".

luckman212 2y ago
That's good news! I don't think I could stomach another global disaster after the climate fails. /s
TaylorAlexander 2y ago
Well maybe but obviously that subreddit is going to be biased towards stories of collapse, rather than telling the whole story. Those stories are terrifying and I’m also of the opinion that things are worse than we realize, but I also think that despite the many human and environmental catastrophes that climate change will continue to cause, society will persist.
holonsphere 2y ago
Read up on the collapse of the AMOC if you havent already heard about it.

crazygringo 2y ago

> We could make our products out of more metal or all metal. What's interesting is that a large part of this was the move to "ergonomic" kitchen tools, which the kitchenware brand OXO has been a big part of. Because you're right -- kitchen tools used to be made out of metal and wood. Metal could be bent back into place and resharpened. Pieces of wood could easily be replaced. Then OXO decided that small metal handles like the one on the all-metal classic vegetable peeler you or I might have grown up with [1] weren't usable by people with hand grip/coordination issues, decided to use a bicycle handlebar grip as a model, and invented their now-famous OXO vegetable peeler [2] with a big rubber grip. And then slowly everything started to follow that aesthetic -- most kitchen tools are made out of plastic, rubber, silicone, and nylon, with "bulbous" handles. The rise of nonstick cookware is partly responsible for the trend as well, necessitating plastic/nylon/silicone turners, spoons, etc. I'm not sure what I think about it. On the one hand, my kitchen almost feels like it's made for children, with all these big grippy things. I worked in a kitchen in Spain once where all the tools were probably 50 or 100 years old, and thought -- oh this is a kitchen for adults! On the other hand, modern kitchen tools seem to be much safer, and usable by a larger proportion of the population -- especially the elderly. So I can't really see that as a bad thing. [1] amazon.com/Linden-Sweden-Original-Vegetable-Peeler/dp/B00176JEY4 [2] https://www.amazon.com/OXO-Good-Grips-Swivel-Peeler/dp/B00004OCIP https://www.amazon.com/OXO-Good-Grips-Swivel-Peeler/dp/B0000...

TaylorAlexander 2y ago
It’s definitely an interesting notion. I would also say that there must have been some correlation between wider availability of plastics and brands like OXO using them for production. They might say it’s a nicer tool to hold, and maybe it is, but plastics are also much, much cheaper to manufacture and need to be replaced more often, so they’re great for corporate profits.

nostromo 2y ago

Plastics will get more expensive as we use less and less oil. Plastics are basically a waste byproduct from the energy industry. As we use less oil, there will be less plastic trying to find a use and flooding the supply of plastics. When prices rise, a lot of single use plastics, like water bottles, will be uneconomical.

siffin 2y ago
Completely wrong, "With gasoline’s days numbered, oil companies are sending huge amounts of their production to chemical plants for plastic." We're gonna get MORE plastic when we use less oil. Always follow the profits. https://www.barrons.com/articles/shell-chevron-oil-chemicals-plastics-d75f8fee https://www.barrons.com/articles/shell-chevron-oil-chemicals...

mxmilkiib 2y ago

Nanoplastics are worse, imho

scotty79 2y ago

paint is also plastic

TaylorAlexander 2y ago
Yeah good point! We’re covering everything in plastic. The Sherwin Williams logo was more honest than we ever wanted it to be. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherwin-Williams#/media/File%3ASherwin_Williams.svg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherwin-Williams#/media/File...
timschmidt 2y ago
That's a great point. Japan black is another metal finish which is often petroleum based. There are non-paint metal finishing techniques like anodizing, shellac, enamel, plating with metals or alloys less prone to oxidization, etc.

londons_explore 2y ago

Nearly all metals are toxic to some extent if ingested. Lead and mercury are famously toxic. But chromium (a component of stainless steel) is rather toxic too, and even copper (used widely in piping and wiring) isn't all that good for you. Nearly all metals will dissolve slightly into food or water they come into contact with. It really isn't clear that metals pose less health risks than plastics.

TaylorAlexander 2y ago
Well, lead and mercury aren’t typical engineering metals. Iron seems fine and actually good for you as long as the dose isn’t too high. Good point on stainless - would be interesting to see what is worse for us in practice based on dosage - chromium from stainless (probably minute quantities) or microplastic. Then there’s aluminum, which seems to be safe but I think science is continuing to develop on that. Then there’s titanium which is still too expensive for normal consumer goods but I think there’s room for that to go down with investment. For example Apple now uses titanium in the iPhone. I think engineering metals have much less influence on the environment than plastics do, but I’m very in favor of more study. My point is that I think this is something we really need to be thinking about. Right now engineering as a field doesn’t spend much time thinking about environmental harms from plastic in normal goods, and we might want to spend more time on that.
- londons_explore 2y ago
  Aluminium is fairly poisonous too: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelford_water_pollution_incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camelford_water_pollution_in... And this study suggests aluminium in the brain might be cause (or effect) of autism, Alzheimer's, and various other neurological conditions: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-64734-6 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-64734-6 (Sulphates, acetates and oxides form really easily from contact with food and the environment)
  - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
    Well the first link is a massive chemical spill which is usually bad, but doesn’t say much about the effects of aluminum in everyday objects. The latter I’m aware of as we have Alzheimer’s in my family and I work in the machine shop with aluminum quite often. I do wear eye and respiratory protection but I also recently researched it and it seems the link between Alzheimer’s and aluminum is still quite unclear and not firmly established. But as I’ve said in a few replies now I’m all for study of what the systemic harms of each are. If plastics cause harm and metals cause harm then the real question is what is the nature and magnitude of those harms. I think this requires more careful study. My point is that it may be time to look at plastic pollution the way we look at CO2 pollution.

pojzon 2y ago

We did nt use plastic as often as we use now in the 50s. After that the oil lobby shifted the world into that horrendous path. All of current issues we have now could be explained pretty simply by human greed. Ps. This year we double the amount of plastic due to the shift into electric cars. That oil has to be used for something.

1970-01-01 2y ago

I think you're looking too hard for a material issue. Plastic kitchen utensils can last just long as metal. Really. I have several plastic strainers from the 80s that are still in use, and several plastic handled knives from 2000s that feel great in my hand. I've also thrown away metal ice cream scoops (yes from Amazon) months after purchase because they became pitted with rust. (And nobody want's rusty ice cream!) The hidden problem is our throw-away economy. Things are just designed to fail now, because everyone want us to simply keep buying.

Obscurity4340 2y ago
> plastic can last as long as metal Is that the issue? It seems more like plastics wearing away from use not to the point of it losing functionality but being constantly exposed to plastics in your food because all the implements are plasticd