5 ms·

So Westinghouse sold the Chinese 4x AP1000, knowing full well that the Chinese would learn, document and then copy/clone the designs all over. https://en.wikipe

So Westinghouse sold the Chinese 4x AP1000, knowing full well that the Chinese would learn, document and then copy/clone the designs all over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP1000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AP1000 Which is exactly what happened; with the follow-on that any improvements are patented and the patent rights are owned solely by the Chinese: "In 2008 and 2009, Westinghouse made agreements to work with the Chinese State Nuclear Power Technology Corporation (SNPTC) and other institutes to develop a larger design, the CAP1400 of 1,400 MWe capacity, possibly followed by a 1,700 MWe design. China will own the patent rights for these larger designs. Exporting the new larger units may be possible with Westinghouse's cooperation."

chickenbig 2y ago
> Westinghouse sold the Chinese 4x AP1000 https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/china-nuclear-power.aspx https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profil... > Westinghouse has agreed to transfer technology to SNPTC over the first four AP1000 units so that SNPTC can build the following ones on its own. So it seems a bit unfair to say the Chinese somehow reversed engineered the AP1000 design. This also happened when Combustion Engineering sold the System 80+ design (a derivative of that deployed at Palo Verde) to South Korea. Apparently Combustion Engineering were in financial trouble and did what was necessary to get the deal, although Westinghouse (who eventually came to own the Combustion Engineering intellectual property) are currently disputing this deal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPR-1000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPR-1000
- aeternum 2y ago
  Better the Chinese actually use the tech than it sets in regulatory deadlock in the US. Sad to see the US lose freedoms just as rapidly as a Chinese citizens. One one case, onerous regulation and on the other a decrease of personal freedom but the overall result is surprisingly similar.
autoexecbat 2y ago
This seems like a great thing for the environment (geopolitics aside)
- stavros 2y ago
  But how is the poor Westinghouse megacorp going to make more money if we're just benefitting humanity for free?!
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  Yes, it's not like China doesn't already have weapons. The more we can do to help them cut carbon emissions the better.
  - r00fus 2y ago
    If only we did what they're doing to cut emissions. They put up more solar every quarter than the rest of the world does every year.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      They have also brought a lot of new coal power plants online in the past few decades. I'm not sure if they still are, or have shut any of that down.
      - HDThoreaun 2y ago
        Theyve lifted a billion people out of poverty in the last 80 years. You need energy to do that
      - burkaman 2y ago
        Building new coal plants is bad, but it could be worse in that they seem to be running those plants less often and using them as peakers rather than baseload: https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/china-coal-plants https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/china-coal-plants
- 2y ago
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Which is exactly what happened The other side of that coin was Westinghouse realising there is no market for civil nuclear power in North America or Europe at this time on account of the newfound alliance between wind and gas.
- maxbond 2y ago
  Where can I learn about the alliance between wind and gas?
  - pfdietz 2y ago
    It's not a conspiracy, it's just an observation that the two technologies play well together. Also, natural gas is very cheap in the US. This latter fact rather than nefarious conspiracies or regulatory evil is why the "nuclear renaissance" collapsed here when the fracking revolution occurred. An efficient combined cycle gas fired power plant might cost $1/W(e), an order of magnitude lower capital cost than a nuclear plant. If the fuel for such a plant is cheap then nuclear is presented with an insuperable economic obstacle. Combustion turbines are amazing technological achievements. It's ironic that one technology with military roots, nuclear fission, has been unseated by another technology with military roots, combustion turbines by way of jet engines.
dig1 2y ago
Well, history repeats itself [1]. [1] https://apnews.com/general-news-b40414d22f2248428ce11ff36b88dc53 https://apnews.com/general-news-b40414d22f2248428ce11ff36b88...
WhereIsTheTruth 2y ago
I wonder if the Chinese regret sharing gunpowder with the west, what do you think?
- m463 2y ago
  There's also the story of china. (in this case, I mean porcelain)
- Log_out_ 2y ago
  Any war technogy is shared in the end. By conquest ot copy, its inevitable.
- TeaBrain 2y ago
  The formula is not thought to have been shared, like the plans to the nuclear reactors were shared. Knowledge of gunpowder is thought to have likely been inadvertently transferred through trade along the silk road, by way of the Middle East, where the knowledge of gunpowder was acquired before Europe.
- vagrantJin 2y ago
  or paper for that matter
HDThoreaun 2y ago
Civil nuclear power is dead in the west. What value does IP that will never be used have? Why not give it to the chinese and see what they can come up with?

chickenbig 2y ago

> Westinghouse sold the Chinese 4x AP1000 https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-a-f/china-nuclear-power.aspx https://world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profil... > Westinghouse has agreed to transfer technology to SNPTC over the first four AP1000 units so that SNPTC can build the following ones on its own. So it seems a bit unfair to say the Chinese somehow reversed engineered the AP1000 design. This also happened when Combustion Engineering sold the System 80+ design (a derivative of that deployed at Palo Verde) to South Korea. Apparently Combustion Engineering were in financial trouble and did what was necessary to get the deal, although Westinghouse (who eventually came to own the Combustion Engineering intellectual property) are currently disputing this deal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPR-1000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OPR-1000

aeternum 2y ago
Better the Chinese actually use the tech than it sets in regulatory deadlock in the US. Sad to see the US lose freedoms just as rapidly as a Chinese citizens. One one case, onerous regulation and on the other a decrease of personal freedom but the overall result is surprisingly similar.

autoexecbat 2y ago

This seems like a great thing for the environment (geopolitics aside)

stavros 2y ago
But how is the poor Westinghouse megacorp going to make more money if we're just benefitting humanity for free?!
SoftTalker 2y ago
Yes, it's not like China doesn't already have weapons. The more we can do to help them cut carbon emissions the better.
- r00fus 2y ago
  If only we did what they're doing to cut emissions. They put up more solar every quarter than the rest of the world does every year.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    They have also brought a lot of new coal power plants online in the past few decades. I'm not sure if they still are, or have shut any of that down.
    - HDThoreaun 2y ago
      Theyve lifted a billion people out of poverty in the last 80 years. You need energy to do that
    - burkaman 2y ago
      Building new coal plants is bad, but it could be worse in that they seem to be running those plants less often and using them as peakers rather than baseload: https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/china-coal-plants https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/china-coal-plants
2y ago

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Which is exactly what happened The other side of that coin was Westinghouse realising there is no market for civil nuclear power in North America or Europe at this time on account of the newfound alliance between wind and gas.

maxbond 2y ago
Where can I learn about the alliance between wind and gas?
- pfdietz 2y ago
  It's not a conspiracy, it's just an observation that the two technologies play well together. Also, natural gas is very cheap in the US. This latter fact rather than nefarious conspiracies or regulatory evil is why the "nuclear renaissance" collapsed here when the fracking revolution occurred. An efficient combined cycle gas fired power plant might cost $1/W(e), an order of magnitude lower capital cost than a nuclear plant. If the fuel for such a plant is cheap then nuclear is presented with an insuperable economic obstacle. Combustion turbines are amazing technological achievements. It's ironic that one technology with military roots, nuclear fission, has been unseated by another technology with military roots, combustion turbines by way of jet engines.

dig1 2y ago

Well, history repeats itself [1]. [1] https://apnews.com/general-news-b40414d22f2248428ce11ff36b88dc53 https://apnews.com/general-news-b40414d22f2248428ce11ff36b88...

WhereIsTheTruth 2y ago

I wonder if the Chinese regret sharing gunpowder with the west, what do you think?

m463 2y ago
There's also the story of china. (in this case, I mean porcelain)
Log_out_ 2y ago
Any war technogy is shared in the end. By conquest ot copy, its inevitable.
TeaBrain 2y ago
The formula is not thought to have been shared, like the plans to the nuclear reactors were shared. Knowledge of gunpowder is thought to have likely been inadvertently transferred through trade along the silk road, by way of the Middle East, where the knowledge of gunpowder was acquired before Europe.
vagrantJin 2y ago
or paper for that matter

HDThoreaun 2y ago

Civil nuclear power is dead in the west. What value does IP that will never be used have? Why not give it to the chinese and see what they can come up with?