6 ms·

Let Readers Read

195 points by mdp2021 2y ago

musicale 2y ago
I don't see them winning without changes to copyright law. Which is perhaps part of the point. As a start, first sale doctrine should apply to ebooks, as should the format shifting exemption (both for libraries and for individuals), and DRM circumvention should be explicitly legalized for non-infringing purposes.
__rito__ 2y ago
Please upload the whole motherload to all shadow libraries, pirated books sites that you know of. Also create chunk sized torrents if you can.
mekarpeles 2y ago
Thank you for posting @mdp2021 -- Mek here, program lead for OpenLibrary.org at the Internet Archive. Over the last several months, readers have felt the devastating impact of more than 500,000 books being removed from the Internet Archive's lending library, as a result of Hachette v. Internet Archive https://help.archive.org/help/why-are-so-many-books-listed-as-borrow-unavailable-at-the-internet-archive/ https://help.archive.org/help/why-are-so-many-books-listed-a... In less than two weeks, on June 28th, the courts will hear the oral argument for the Internet Archive's appeal. What's at stake is the fundamental ability for library patrons to continue borrowing and reading the books the Internet Archive owns, like any other library. Please consider signing the Open Letter to urge publishers to restore access to the 500,000 books they’ve caused to be removed from the Internet Archive’s lending library and let readers read.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- mdp2021 2y ago
  Thank you for your work, Mek. Glad I was attentive. Let us make this wretched world worth it.
sydbarrett74 2y ago
Copyright law in this country has been rogue for decades. Thank you, Sonny Bono!
- account42 2y ago
  "In this country?" The US deserves it's share of blame for pushing coyright via trade agreements but the berne convention isn't just the US and the situation isn't exactly better in other western countries. At least the US in theory recognizes copyright as an infringement on our rights that is only justified in order to ensure the production of creative works. As flawed and untested as that logic is, it is still much better than the inherent author rights that are more common in e.g. the EU.
raybb 2y ago
I'd love to see the stats about how many books purchases happen on Amazon because they're referred to from openlibrary.org (which has Amazon links on all pages). I think the 1 hour loan available for so many books on IA feels pretty similar to standing in a bookstore and reading for a little while. You get an idea if the book is worth your time and if you really like it you'll probably want to buy it somewhere that you can easily annotate it and maybe even pass it on to the friend.
- rolph 2y ago
  "You get an idea if the book is worth your time" when this happens, it signifigantly raises the bar for authors and producers to deliver a desired quality rather than a spiffy promotional campaign for a pulp piece.
  - wongarsu 2y ago
    A bar that the book industry always seemed happy with. The romantic view of "traditional publishing" contains a value chain that starts with a publisher selecting the best drafts sent to them, spending lots of time in a back and forth between editor and author to polish that draft, and ends with a bookseller who is an avid reader and can give personalized recommendations to every shopper. Of course in today's reality we have largely anonymous book stores, "bestseller" lists that are systematically manipulated, and publishers that lower their standards in the face of competition from self-publishing (both with cheaper book printing and online publishing). But providing books that are worth your time still seems to be one of the large selling-points of publishers.
- boznz 2y ago
  Send a Sample from amazon and other eBook suppliers is usually 10% of the book. Another unfortunate metric for modern authors as they now have to make something interesting happen in the first 10% rather than a slow character and plot build up.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    10% of the book is like, literally, one tenth of a book. There should be something happening in that span, at the very least some interesting buildup - otherwise, what's all this space used on?
pie_flavor 2y ago
For those who don't know, the case against archive.org is pretty rock solid and justifiable. They had been operating a lending library of ebooks, where you could 'check out' an ebook file and they wouldn't let anyone else read it until you had 'put it back'. They had many options for evading DRM and told you to delete the file when you 'put it back' on the honor system, so this was already legally shaky, but during the pandemic they disabled the limits and let anyone 'check out' anything they wanted without waiting for a copy to become available - AKA hosting a pirate site for downloading unauthorized ebook copies, just with 'library' branding. That is what they got sued for.
- sayhar 2y ago
  A lot of this is flatly untrue.
  - pie_flavor 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - crtasm 2y ago
      Then you can give us some proof/citation on "They had many options for evading DRM" please? Every time I've borrowed a book on there, it's used Adobe DRM just like when I buy an ebook.
      - pie_flavor 2y ago
        The options to download the book as a PDF or epub.
        crtasm 2y ago
        Those options don't exist for books in their lending programme though. Example: https://archive.org/details/introducingpytho0000luba https://archive.org/details/introducingpytho0000luba
aeriose 2y ago
Isn’t the whole reason the lawsuit started because the Internet Archive went above an own-to-loan ratio of 1? This blog post completely leaves this detail out and makes it seem they were always only doing 1 physical copy to 1 digital copy which is not true.
- boomboomsubban 2y ago
  >Isn’t the whole reason the lawsuit started because the Internet Archive went above an own-to-loan ratio of 1? No. The lawsuit was about CDL as a whole, and there's plenty of evidence showing publishers were preparing for it even without the COVID emergency library. If the lawsuit was just over the emergency library, I doubt IA would still be fighting.
ForHackernews 2y ago
Honestly, I don't understand why they're picking a fight with publishers. These lawsuits endanger the future of the Internet Archive which does a lot of really unique and irreplaceable work in digital preservation. There are plenty of other groups with deeper pockets and bigger institutional backing that preserve and share books. Let someone else fight this battle.
- mdp2021 2y ago
  It is already ongoing, the publishers already sued - and initially won. This is about a request for appeal.
  - account42 2y ago
    It is ongoing now. It wasn't ongoing when the IA decided to branch into lending books.
    - mdp2021 2y ago
      So you mean: "they could have avoided the fight by avoiding lending". The reply would very probably be that they thought they did what was Right... Many of us agree. A proper online library: yes this is one of the greatest ideas and values.
  - ForHackernews 2y ago
    Oh, well, I guess I hope they win their appeal because it's too late to unring that bell. When I read about it, it seemed like a very open-and-shut infringement case, though. It seems like their only chance will be drawing some activist judges who want to make new law.
mdp2021 2y ago
> We envision a world ... where library patrons are free to read without fear of corporate or government surveillance I would like to remind the public of: # An attorney says she saw her library reading habits reflected in mobile ads. That's not supposed to happen https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/18/mystery_of_the_targeted_mobile_ads/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/18/mystery_of_the_target...
- savingsPossible 2y ago
  Reading the article, it seems that this relates not to the internet archive, that is privacy preserving, but to another public library (that aparently was leaking or selling data -- I did not read it entirely)
  - mdp2021 2y ago
    The point is that the Archive highlights the risk of surveillance over library patrons, and I highlighted that instances of said risk have been reported.
    - dredmorbius 2y ago
      Understood, but it took me reading the reply to your initial comment to realise this. You could have been clearer in your first comment. Getting out too far ahead of your message is a constant challenge in advocacy. (And FWIW, I strongly endorse the IA, and AFAICT your own viewpoint here.)
  - GrantMoyer 2y ago
    In fact, the article sugests it was a third party, for-profit DRM service, such as OverDrive, which publishers force libraries to use to lend audio and e-books, who sold the patron's data to advertisers. Perhaps this is what the GP comment intended to point out.
AlienRobot 2y ago
Am I the only one who feels embarrassed when I see something like this? I'm just a nerd. I'm not involved with ebook publishing. But I know for a fact that I'm the 1%. 99% of the people can't use a computer as well as I'm able to. So this is my 1%. And when my 1% creates a digital version of a product that is inferior to the physical version of the product, and then tells the 99% it's the better way but it turns out they just didn't consider everything, and they don't even seem to care, and it just keeps making things worse for a lot of people, I just feel embarrassed. It wasn't supposed to be like this. It was supposed to be a total victory, better in every conceivable way. If it's not for the smell and texture of paper, then I don't want to hear "but physical books are better because..." This isn't even a complicated technology. It's just text. How can an industry that can't figure out how to make a book digital handle something like artificial intelligence?
eevilspock 2y ago
[flagged]
- mdp2021 2y ago
  It is probably worth noting that libraries are traditionally State-supported, because the development of internal knowledge is considered crucial for the development of everything else. The business model is that society wants them and finances them for the improvement of society.

195 points by mdp2021 2y ago

I don't see them winning without changes to copyright law. Which is perhaps part of the point. As a start, first sale doctrine should apply to ebooks, as should the format shifting exemption (both for libraries and for individuals), and DRM circumvention should be explicitly legalized for non-infringing purposes.

__rito__ 2y ago

Please upload the whole motherload to all shadow libraries, pirated books sites that you know of. Also create chunk sized torrents if you can.

mekarpeles 2y ago

Thank you for posting @mdp2021 -- Mek here, program lead for OpenLibrary.org at the Internet Archive. Over the last several months, readers have felt the devastating impact of more than 500,000 books being removed from the Internet Archive's lending library, as a result of Hachette v. Internet Archive https://help.archive.org/help/why-are-so-many-books-listed-as-borrow-unavailable-at-the-internet-archive/ https://help.archive.org/help/why-are-so-many-books-listed-a... In less than two weeks, on June 28th, the courts will hear the oral argument for the Internet Archive's appeal. What's at stake is the fundamental ability for library patrons to continue borrowing and reading the books the Internet Archive owns, like any other library. Please consider signing the Open Letter to urge publishers to restore access to the 500,000 books they’ve caused to be removed from the Internet Archive’s lending library and let readers read.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mdp2021 2y ago
Thank you for your work, Mek. Glad I was attentive. Let us make this wretched world worth it.

sydbarrett74 2y ago

account42 2y ago
"In this country?" The US deserves it's share of blame for pushing coyright via trade agreements but the berne convention isn't just the US and the situation isn't exactly better in other western countries. At least the US in theory recognizes copyright as an infringement on our rights that is only justified in order to ensure the production of creative works. As flawed and untested as that logic is, it is still much better than the inherent author rights that are more common in e.g. the EU.

raybb 2y ago

I'd love to see the stats about how many books purchases happen on Amazon because they're referred to from openlibrary.org (which has Amazon links on all pages). I think the 1 hour loan available for so many books on IA feels pretty similar to standing in a bookstore and reading for a little while. You get an idea if the book is worth your time and if you really like it you'll probably want to buy it somewhere that you can easily annotate it and maybe even pass it on to the friend.

rolph 2y ago
"You get an idea if the book is worth your time" when this happens, it signifigantly raises the bar for authors and producers to deliver a desired quality rather than a spiffy promotional campaign for a pulp piece.
- wongarsu 2y ago
  A bar that the book industry always seemed happy with. The romantic view of "traditional publishing" contains a value chain that starts with a publisher selecting the best drafts sent to them, spending lots of time in a back and forth between editor and author to polish that draft, and ends with a bookseller who is an avid reader and can give personalized recommendations to every shopper. Of course in today's reality we have largely anonymous book stores, "bestseller" lists that are systematically manipulated, and publishers that lower their standards in the face of competition from self-publishing (both with cheaper book printing and online publishing). But providing books that are worth your time still seems to be one of the large selling-points of publishers.
boznz 2y ago
Send a Sample from amazon and other eBook suppliers is usually 10% of the book. Another unfortunate metric for modern authors as they now have to make something interesting happen in the first 10% rather than a slow character and plot build up.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  10% of the book is like, literally, one tenth of a book. There should be something happening in that span, at the very least some interesting buildup - otherwise, what's all this space used on?

pie_flavor 2y ago

For those who don't know, the case against archive.org is pretty rock solid and justifiable. They had been operating a lending library of ebooks, where you could 'check out' an ebook file and they wouldn't let anyone else read it until you had 'put it back'. They had many options for evading DRM and told you to delete the file when you 'put it back' on the honor system, so this was already legally shaky, but during the pandemic they disabled the limits and let anyone 'check out' anything they wanted without waiting for a copy to become available - AKA hosting a pirate site for downloading unauthorized ebook copies, just with 'library' branding. That is what they got sued for.

sayhar 2y ago
A lot of this is flatly untrue.
- pie_flavor 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - crtasm 2y ago
    Then you can give us some proof/citation on "They had many options for evading DRM" please? Every time I've borrowed a book on there, it's used Adobe DRM just like when I buy an ebook.
    - pie_flavor 2y ago
      The options to download the book as a PDF or epub.
      - crtasm 2y ago
        Those options don't exist for books in their lending programme though. Example: https://archive.org/details/introducingpytho0000luba https://archive.org/details/introducingpytho0000luba

aeriose 2y ago

Isn’t the whole reason the lawsuit started because the Internet Archive went above an own-to-loan ratio of 1? This blog post completely leaves this detail out and makes it seem they were always only doing 1 physical copy to 1 digital copy which is not true.

boomboomsubban 2y ago
>Isn’t the whole reason the lawsuit started because the Internet Archive went above an own-to-loan ratio of 1? No. The lawsuit was about CDL as a whole, and there's plenty of evidence showing publishers were preparing for it even without the COVID emergency library. If the lawsuit was just over the emergency library, I doubt IA would still be fighting.

ForHackernews 2y ago

Honestly, I don't understand why they're picking a fight with publishers. These lawsuits endanger the future of the Internet Archive which does a lot of really unique and irreplaceable work in digital preservation. There are plenty of other groups with deeper pockets and bigger institutional backing that preserve and share books. Let someone else fight this battle.

mdp2021 2y ago
It is already ongoing, the publishers already sued - and initially won. This is about a request for appeal.
- account42 2y ago
  It is ongoing now. It wasn't ongoing when the IA decided to branch into lending books.
  - mdp2021 2y ago
    So you mean: "they could have avoided the fight by avoiding lending". The reply would very probably be that they thought they did what was Right... Many of us agree. A proper online library: yes this is one of the greatest ideas and values.
- ForHackernews 2y ago
  Oh, well, I guess I hope they win their appeal because it's too late to unring that bell. When I read about it, it seemed like a very open-and-shut infringement case, though. It seems like their only chance will be drawing some activist judges who want to make new law.

mdp2021 2y ago

> We envision a world ... where library patrons are free to read without fear of corporate or government surveillance I would like to remind the public of: # An attorney says she saw her library reading habits reflected in mobile ads. That's not supposed to happen https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/18/mystery_of_the_targeted_mobile_ads/ https://www.theregister.com/2024/05/18/mystery_of_the_target...

savingsPossible 2y ago
Reading the article, it seems that this relates not to the internet archive, that is privacy preserving, but to another public library (that aparently was leaking or selling data -- I did not read it entirely)
- mdp2021 2y ago
  The point is that the Archive highlights the risk of surveillance over library patrons, and I highlighted that instances of said risk have been reported.
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    Understood, but it took me reading the reply to your initial comment to realise this. You could have been clearer in your first comment. Getting out too far ahead of your message is a constant challenge in advocacy. (And FWIW, I strongly endorse the IA, and AFAICT your own viewpoint here.)
- GrantMoyer 2y ago
  In fact, the article sugests it was a third party, for-profit DRM service, such as OverDrive, which publishers force libraries to use to lend audio and e-books, who sold the patron's data to advertisers. Perhaps this is what the GP comment intended to point out.

AlienRobot 2y ago

Am I the only one who feels embarrassed when I see something like this? I'm just a nerd. I'm not involved with ebook publishing. But I know for a fact that I'm the 1%. 99% of the people can't use a computer as well as I'm able to. So this is my 1%. And when my 1% creates a digital version of a product that is inferior to the physical version of the product, and then tells the 99% it's the better way but it turns out they just didn't consider everything, and they don't even seem to care, and it just keeps making things worse for a lot of people, I just feel embarrassed. It wasn't supposed to be like this. It was supposed to be a total victory, better in every conceivable way. If it's not for the smell and texture of paper, then I don't want to hear "but physical books are better because..." This isn't even a complicated technology. It's just text. How can an industry that can't figure out how to make a book digital handle something like artificial intelligence?

eevilspock 2y ago

[flagged]

mdp2021 2y ago
It is probably worth noting that libraries are traditionally State-supported, because the development of internal knowledge is considered crucial for the development of everything else. The business model is that society wants them and finances them for the improvement of society.