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What is DJI, why is it being banned, and why should the general public care about this? (In all seriousness, nothing I've read about "DJI" even explains the ba

What is DJI, why is it being banned, and why should the general public care about this? (In all seriousness, nothing I've read about "DJI" even explains the basics of the issue.)

hooverd 2y ago
The consumer market has had it too good for too long.
- FpUser 2y ago
  Yeah, they have to suffer and pay through the nose. That'll teach them right
Sparkle-san 2y ago
DJI arguably makes the best consumer camera drones on the market. Why ban them? Because they're Chinese probably. https://www.dji.com/camera-drones https://www.dji.com/camera-drones
- squarefoot 2y ago
  Probably yes. The industry can fight with quality or price against Chinese bad products and non Chinese good products, but products that are both Chinese and top notch quality are going to dominate the market because of comparatively lower costs. Now, that law can indeed have some basis, in theory, but tailoring it to a single brand won't achieve much as the Chinese industry can rebrand products at a cost and in times that are a fraction of a fraction of what it takes to any western democratic country to adjust the law against another brand. On the other hand, they can't make a generic law against say suspicious code running on consumer devices that could be used to exfiltrate personal data, as it would potentially hit every connected device out there, including western branded ones. My impression is that they (the law makers) are almost facing the wall where they should admit that closed proprietary devices are generally unsafe and bad, but can't because it would hurt the same industry that contributed to their campaigns, so they direct all weapons against the external enemy. "We're good, they're bad", and end of the story.
  - WhackyIdeas 2y ago
    I agree with your impression. It reminds me.. when someone is cheating on a partner, they are more likely to think they are being cheated on too. I have experienced this, being accused non-stop when actually they were the one cheating all along. Just because USA likes tampering with proprietary code and using NDA’s with Silicon Valley to bug just about anything they want (because they can), that paranoia consumes them that other countries are doing the same.
    - kube-system 2y ago
      > Just because USA likes tampering with proprietary code and using NDA’s with Silicon Valley to bug just about anything they want (because they can), that paranoia consumes them that other countries are doing the same. During times of war, other countries absolutely do the same.
      - rubytubido 2y ago
        When you can't justify the actions of your country - but..but..but other countries they do the same! Just looks at the western reactions about 'foreign agents' bill in Georgia.
        kube-system 2y ago
        Who said I'm trying to justify anything? I don't think it is justifiable to do during peacetime. But obviously an existential crisis is not the time that many governments stand on their principles, which is why 'war powers' tend to be justified under extenuating circumstances when countries end up at war. There is no question, if there is another major war between world powers, they will invoke the authority to compel their industries to cooperate with the effort. If they don't, they'll quickly cease to exist.
  - kube-system 2y ago
    > they can't make a generic law against say suspicious code running on consumer devices that could be used to exfiltrate personal data, as it would potentially hit every connected device out there, including western branded ones. My impression is that they (the law makers) are almost facing the wall where they should admit that closed proprietary devices are generally unsafe and bad The issue is even bigger than that. It doesn't matter what the device does now, nor does it matter whether it is open or proprietary. When it comes to national security, ask yourself "what could happen in a time of war?" Some obvious answers are: 1. If it connects to foreign service providers, those services could be shut off or changed to be malicious 2. If the device uses parts/support/updates from foreign service providers, those could be discontinued, or changed to be malicious 3. If you need the product, but don't make them locally, they may no longer be available. etc.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
alephnerd 2y ago
> What is DJI One of the largest drone manufacturers globally and backed by the Chinese government [0] and several Red Families [1] > why is it being banned It is very closely connected with Chinese government stakeholders, with worries around privacy and data retention [2]. There is also some lobbying by Skydio and Andruil [3][4]. They are also breaking sanctions against Russia with Russian forces using their drones [5][6] (though the Ukrainians are using them as well), as well as sanctions around Xinjiang [7]. > why should the general public care about this They are a popular low cost drone option. It might also spark a rise in domestic drone vendors - especially in the industrial and defense space [8]. --------- Also, can we please have another source. DroneDJ is a DJI specific blog and as such is biased in favor of DJI. Here's some reporting from AP - https://apnews.com/buyline-shopping/article/dji-drone-ban-in-the-us https://apnews.com/buyline-shopping/article/dji-drone-ban-in... And the bill itself - https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/2864 https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/2864 -------- [0] - https://ipvm.com/reports/dji-prc https://ipvm.com/reports/dji-prc [1] - https://tracxn.com/d/companies/dji/__-YU3B-qveVWiE0QN_8HPp2mwgOqkK8SA2a0J3V9UvS0 https://tracxn.com/d/companies/dji/__-YU3B-qveVWiE0QN_8HPp2m... [2] - https://info.publicintelligence.net/ICE-DJI-China.pdf https://info.publicintelligence.net/ICE-DJI-China.pdf [3] - https://www.auvsi.org/policy-proposals https://www.auvsi.org/policy-proposals [4] - https://www.auvsi.org/member-organizations-list/all https://www.auvsi.org/member-organizations-list/all [5] - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/21/business/russia-china-drones-ukraine-war.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/21/business/russia-china-dro... [6] - https://djirussia.ru/ https://djirussia.ru/ [7] - https://ipvm.com/discussions/dji-xinjiang-human-rights-abuse-complicity-identified-in-report-reviewed-by-ipvm https://ipvm.com/discussions/dji-xinjiang-human-rights-abuse... [8] - https://www.ycombinator.com/rfs https://www.ycombinator.com/rfs
itsacodething 2y ago
If you want to know why the US would have interest in limiting the growth of DJI look no further then Ukraine and the impact drones have on the war. The US wants to encourage domestic drone manufacturing by eliminating the largest Chinese manufacturer as an option.
- mc32 2y ago
  They have Skydio for that. There is no profit in consumer-oriented drones. The money is in lower volume professional & semi-professional use drones. You cannot compete with China even if we annexed Mexico for cheap labor in order to manufacture high volume low profit drones.
  - kaibee 2y ago
    This is exactly the problem. The military needs single-use drones in high volume, and the production capacity/scale for that can only exist if it's subsidized by the consumer industry. > You cannot compete with China even if we annexed Mexico for cheap labor in order to manufacture high volume low profit drones. DJI isn't making drones by hand, they have automated factories. But its only worth building an automated factory if you're selling at a massive scale. Banning DJI drones in the US lets you build a factory in the US that can eventually get costs down. And it's also dumb to fund your opponent's war production lines.
    - doctorpangloss 2y ago
      > Banning DJI drones in the US lets you build a factory in the US that can eventually get costs down. I anticipate exactly zero automated drone factories.
      - kaibee 2y ago
        I don't see why. Drones are pretty simple manufacturing wise. The issue at scale is the supply chain of cheap motors, cheap control boards, and cheap batteries.
empath75 2y ago
Drones are national security issues for two reasons -- one is that they could be used for surveillance domestically (similar problem with tik tok) and secondarily drones are now core warfare technology and the US has offshored so much of it's manufacturing capacity (not just for drones, but for all electronics) that the US is at real risk of losing any conflict with china because our supply chains will be absolutely wrecked if China cuts us off, so the US is trying to encourage more domestic production. I think China cutting off exports to the US would be way more devastating to the US economy than the US cutting Russia off from the world banking system was to Russia.

What is DJI, why is it being banned, and why should the general public care about this? (In all seriousness, nothing I've read about "DJI" even explains the basics of the issue.)

hooverd 2y ago

The consumer market has had it too good for too long.

FpUser 2y ago
Yeah, they have to suffer and pay through the nose. That'll teach them right

Sparkle-san 2y ago

DJI arguably makes the best consumer camera drones on the market. Why ban them? Because they're Chinese probably. https://www.dji.com/camera-drones https://www.dji.com/camera-drones

squarefoot 2y ago
Probably yes. The industry can fight with quality or price against Chinese bad products and non Chinese good products, but products that are both Chinese and top notch quality are going to dominate the market because of comparatively lower costs. Now, that law can indeed have some basis, in theory, but tailoring it to a single brand won't achieve much as the Chinese industry can rebrand products at a cost and in times that are a fraction of a fraction of what it takes to any western democratic country to adjust the law against another brand. On the other hand, they can't make a generic law against say suspicious code running on consumer devices that could be used to exfiltrate personal data, as it would potentially hit every connected device out there, including western branded ones. My impression is that they (the law makers) are almost facing the wall where they should admit that closed proprietary devices are generally unsafe and bad, but can't because it would hurt the same industry that contributed to their campaigns, so they direct all weapons against the external enemy. "We're good, they're bad", and end of the story.
- WhackyIdeas 2y ago
  I agree with your impression. It reminds me.. when someone is cheating on a partner, they are more likely to think they are being cheated on too. I have experienced this, being accused non-stop when actually they were the one cheating all along. Just because USA likes tampering with proprietary code and using NDA’s with Silicon Valley to bug just about anything they want (because they can), that paranoia consumes them that other countries are doing the same.
  - kube-system 2y ago
    > Just because USA likes tampering with proprietary code and using NDA’s with Silicon Valley to bug just about anything they want (because they can), that paranoia consumes them that other countries are doing the same. During times of war, other countries absolutely do the same.
    - rubytubido 2y ago
      When you can't justify the actions of your country - but..but..but other countries they do the same! Just looks at the western reactions about 'foreign agents' bill in Georgia.
      - kube-system 2y ago
        Who said I'm trying to justify anything? I don't think it is justifiable to do during peacetime. But obviously an existential crisis is not the time that many governments stand on their principles, which is why 'war powers' tend to be justified under extenuating circumstances when countries end up at war. There is no question, if there is another major war between world powers, they will invoke the authority to compel their industries to cooperate with the effort. If they don't, they'll quickly cease to exist.
- kube-system 2y ago
  > they can't make a generic law against say suspicious code running on consumer devices that could be used to exfiltrate personal data, as it would potentially hit every connected device out there, including western branded ones. My impression is that they (the law makers) are almost facing the wall where they should admit that closed proprietary devices are generally unsafe and bad The issue is even bigger than that. It doesn't matter what the device does now, nor does it matter whether it is open or proprietary. When it comes to national security, ask yourself "what could happen in a time of war?" Some obvious answers are: 1. If it connects to foreign service providers, those services could be shut off or changed to be malicious 2. If the device uses parts/support/updates from foreign service providers, those could be discontinued, or changed to be malicious 3. If you need the product, but don't make them locally, they may no longer be available. etc.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

alephnerd 2y ago

> What is DJI One of the largest drone manufacturers globally and backed by the Chinese government [0] and several Red Families [1] > why is it being banned It is very closely connected with Chinese government stakeholders, with worries around privacy and data retention [2]. There is also some lobbying by Skydio and Andruil [3][4]. They are also breaking sanctions against Russia with Russian forces using their drones [5][6] (though the Ukrainians are using them as well), as well as sanctions around Xinjiang [7]. > why should the general public care about this They are a popular low cost drone option. It might also spark a rise in domestic drone vendors - especially in the industrial and defense space [8]. --------- Also, can we please have another source. DroneDJ is a DJI specific blog and as such is biased in favor of DJI. Here's some reporting from AP - https://apnews.com/buyline-shopping/article/dji-drone-ban-in-the-us https://apnews.com/buyline-shopping/article/dji-drone-ban-in... And the bill itself - https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/2864 https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/2864 -------- [0] - https://ipvm.com/reports/dji-prc https://ipvm.com/reports/dji-prc [1] - https://tracxn.com/d/companies/dji/__-YU3B-qveVWiE0QN_8HPp2mwgOqkK8SA2a0J3V9UvS0 https://tracxn.com/d/companies/dji/__-YU3B-qveVWiE0QN_8HPp2m... [2] - https://info.publicintelligence.net/ICE-DJI-China.pdf https://info.publicintelligence.net/ICE-DJI-China.pdf [3] - https://www.auvsi.org/policy-proposals https://www.auvsi.org/policy-proposals [4] - https://www.auvsi.org/member-organizations-list/all https://www.auvsi.org/member-organizations-list/all [5] - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/21/business/russia-china-drones-ukraine-war.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/21/business/russia-china-dro... [6] - https://djirussia.ru/ https://djirussia.ru/ [7] - https://ipvm.com/discussions/dji-xinjiang-human-rights-abuse-complicity-identified-in-report-reviewed-by-ipvm https://ipvm.com/discussions/dji-xinjiang-human-rights-abuse... [8] - https://www.ycombinator.com/rfs https://www.ycombinator.com/rfs

itsacodething 2y ago

If you want to know why the US would have interest in limiting the growth of DJI look no further then Ukraine and the impact drones have on the war. The US wants to encourage domestic drone manufacturing by eliminating the largest Chinese manufacturer as an option.

mc32 2y ago
They have Skydio for that. There is no profit in consumer-oriented drones. The money is in lower volume professional & semi-professional use drones. You cannot compete with China even if we annexed Mexico for cheap labor in order to manufacture high volume low profit drones.
- kaibee 2y ago
  This is exactly the problem. The military needs single-use drones in high volume, and the production capacity/scale for that can only exist if it's subsidized by the consumer industry. > You cannot compete with China even if we annexed Mexico for cheap labor in order to manufacture high volume low profit drones. DJI isn't making drones by hand, they have automated factories. But its only worth building an automated factory if you're selling at a massive scale. Banning DJI drones in the US lets you build a factory in the US that can eventually get costs down. And it's also dumb to fund your opponent's war production lines.
  - doctorpangloss 2y ago
    > Banning DJI drones in the US lets you build a factory in the US that can eventually get costs down. I anticipate exactly zero automated drone factories.
    - kaibee 2y ago
      I don't see why. Drones are pretty simple manufacturing wise. The issue at scale is the supply chain of cheap motors, cheap control boards, and cheap batteries.

empath75 2y ago

Drones are national security issues for two reasons -- one is that they could be used for surveillance domestically (similar problem with tik tok) and secondarily drones are now core warfare technology and the US has offshored so much of it's manufacturing capacity (not just for drones, but for all electronics) that the US is at real risk of losing any conflict with china because our supply chains will be absolutely wrecked if China cuts us off, so the US is trying to encourage more domestic production. I think China cutting off exports to the US would be way more devastating to the US economy than the US cutting Russia off from the world banking system was to Russia.