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It seems pretty clear for example that being an alcoholic can cause DNA methylation in your gametes such that your offspring have a higher risk above and beyond

by ch4s3 2y ago

It seems pretty clear for example that being an alcoholic can cause DNA methylation in your gametes such that your offspring have a higher risk above and beyond regular genetic factors to become an alcoholic. However that is at a population level and there are complicating factors. Inherited trauma is totally unsupported but up or down regulated gene expression based on environmental factors before your conception are supported by some compelling evidence.

jvanderbot 2y ago
I'm trying on a mental model re: Epigenetics. How does this look: Your genes are a recipe book, not a blueprint. What recipe is chosen is based somewhat on environmental effects. When you reproduce, you shuffle together the parents book + the earmarks on the pages.
- ch4s3 2y ago
  I'm not sure if that totally fits. There's a kind of signal amplification or de-amplification happening.
  - jvanderbot 2y ago
    Yeah I was using dogear as a way of signalling "prefer this page"
    - ch4s3 2y ago
      Yeah, I assumed that, but down regulating isn't well captured in that metaphor.
margalabargala 2y ago
> Inherited trauma is totally unsupported This is only true if you take a pretty narrow definition of the word "trauma". One example would be an ancestor experiencing famine, who then passes down epigenetic markers have marked effects on their offspring in terms of health, longevity, and behavior. Here's a Nature article on it: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-023-01159-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-023-01159-4 > "Collectively, these discoveries infer the existence of “a heritable memory of starvation/hunger”."
- ch4s3 2y ago
  The Dutch Hunger cohort study is highly suspect. However, the idea that someone is literally starving to death just before or during gestation having some knock on genetic effects is not all that surprising. But again, the phrase "inherited trauma", as it's typically used is bunk. Also the phrase "a heritable memory" is kind of nonsense even with respect to epigenetic changes. Again what we're talking about with epigenetics is up or down regulation of your existing genes, not some new information being encoded.
  - margalabargala 2y ago
    I found the research about the Chinese Suihua cohort to be more compelling. I fully agree that someone starving to death right around the time of pregnancy could have some knock on effects; this is discussing changes in the following generation, the ones that are tens of years removed from the starvation event. > Also the phrase "a heritable memory" is kind of nonsense even with respect to epigenetic changes. Again what we're talking about with epigenetics is up or down regulation of your existing genes, not some new information being encoded. I wonder if you are missing the forest for the trees here somewhat. We're talking about the up/down regulation of specific genes based on specific methylation patterns in DNA that are present only because of some event that occurred. It's not memory in the sense of "I remember what I had for breakfast this morning", but it's memory in the sense of "these methylation patterns exist because their genesis was triggered by a specific event in the last few generations". That IS new information being encoded, just in a more fuzzy way than with neurons or computer memory. I would need more convincing to think the phrases you mention are nonsense/bunk. Could you perhaps articulate the definitions you're using for "trauma" and "memory"? I think we are using different definitions, as it seems clear what is meant by the phrases as used. EDIT: what issue do you take with the Dutch hunger study? I hadn't heard criticism about it before, and I just googled "dutch hunger cohort study criticism" and found nothing.
    - moralestapia 2y ago
      >just googled "dutch hunger cohort study criticism" and found nothing x2 @ch4s3 is making some pretty strong claims here and there, for which I do not see the evidence either. Don't take me wrong, I don't mean to suggest he's just being a quack; but rather, this is an invitation for him to substantiate his knowledge. The more we learn the better, :).

by ch4s3 2y ago

jvanderbot 2y ago

I'm trying on a mental model re: Epigenetics. How does this look: Your genes are a recipe book, not a blueprint. What recipe is chosen is based somewhat on environmental effects. When you reproduce, you shuffle together the parents book + the earmarks on the pages.

ch4s3 2y ago
I'm not sure if that totally fits. There's a kind of signal amplification or de-amplification happening.
- jvanderbot 2y ago
  Yeah I was using dogear as a way of signalling "prefer this page"
  - ch4s3 2y ago
    Yeah, I assumed that, but down regulating isn't well captured in that metaphor.

margalabargala 2y ago

> Inherited trauma is totally unsupported This is only true if you take a pretty narrow definition of the word "trauma". One example would be an ancestor experiencing famine, who then passes down epigenetic markers have marked effects on their offspring in terms of health, longevity, and behavior. Here's a Nature article on it: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-023-01159-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41418-023-01159-4 > "Collectively, these discoveries infer the existence of “a heritable memory of starvation/hunger”."

ch4s3 2y ago
The Dutch Hunger cohort study is highly suspect. However, the idea that someone is literally starving to death just before or during gestation having some knock on genetic effects is not all that surprising. But again, the phrase "inherited trauma", as it's typically used is bunk. Also the phrase "a heritable memory" is kind of nonsense even with respect to epigenetic changes. Again what we're talking about with epigenetics is up or down regulation of your existing genes, not some new information being encoded.
- margalabargala 2y ago
  I found the research about the Chinese Suihua cohort to be more compelling. I fully agree that someone starving to death right around the time of pregnancy could have some knock on effects; this is discussing changes in the following generation, the ones that are tens of years removed from the starvation event. > Also the phrase "a heritable memory" is kind of nonsense even with respect to epigenetic changes. Again what we're talking about with epigenetics is up or down regulation of your existing genes, not some new information being encoded. I wonder if you are missing the forest for the trees here somewhat. We're talking about the up/down regulation of specific genes based on specific methylation patterns in DNA that are present only because of some event that occurred. It's not memory in the sense of "I remember what I had for breakfast this morning", but it's memory in the sense of "these methylation patterns exist because their genesis was triggered by a specific event in the last few generations". That IS new information being encoded, just in a more fuzzy way than with neurons or computer memory. I would need more convincing to think the phrases you mention are nonsense/bunk. Could you perhaps articulate the definitions you're using for "trauma" and "memory"? I think we are using different definitions, as it seems clear what is meant by the phrases as used. EDIT: what issue do you take with the Dutch hunger study? I hadn't heard criticism about it before, and I just googled "dutch hunger cohort study criticism" and found nothing.
  - moralestapia 2y ago
    >just googled "dutch hunger cohort study criticism" and found nothing x2 @ch4s3 is making some pretty strong claims here and there, for which I do not see the evidence either. Don't take me wrong, I don't mean to suggest he's just being a quack; but rather, this is an invitation for him to substantiate his knowledge. The more we learn the better, :).