3 ms·

Follow up work has not held up the 2008 article you shared[1], and has in fact shown that larvae do not carry over memories through metamorphosis. [1] https://

by ch4s3 2y ago

Follow up work has not held up the 2008 article you shared[1], and has in fact shown that larvae do not carry over memories through metamorphosis. [1] https://www.quantamagazine.org/insect-brains-melt-and-rewire-during-metamorphosis-20230726/#:~:text=The%20reshuffling%20of%20neurons%20during,don't%20persist%20in%20adults https://www.quantamagazine.org/insect-brains-melt-and-rewire....

BenFranklin100 2y ago
Further, even if the study had held up, there is a vast difference between memories retained through an individual metamorphosis event, and passing memories along to offspring resulting from sexual reproduction. The OP fails to recognize this obvious point.
- ch4s3 2y ago
  Yes, I completely agree.
- moralestapia 2y ago
  >The OP fails to recognize this obvious point. I don't. You're attacking a straw man. You wrote, >Erm…memories — by any biologically reasonable definition— are separate from epigenetic changes. I replied with a study showing the opposite to be true.
  - BenFranklin100 2y ago
    No, I said, “There is a vast difference between memories retained through an individual metamorphosis event, and passing memories along to offspring resulting from sexual reproduction. The OP fails to recognize this obvious point.” You’re selectively quoting and then re-arranging the quotes to attempt to make yourself look better. Honestly, for someone to be posting this nonsense with a link to their LinkedIn professional profile in their bio is kind of career suicide. You’ve inadvertently stumbled into an argument on a IT tech website with people who are bona fide life scientists and are embarrassed and are clumsily trying to save face.
    - moralestapia 2y ago
      My career is doing just fine, actually. Like, better than ever and I'm not making this up. Feel free to add me on LinkedIn, I have no issue in people knowing who I am; should I be scared or anything? Lol. You should try not being anonymous, just a suggestion, :). You said: "Memory [...] is separate from epigenetic changes" I replied with a study that seems to suggest otherwise. That's not really hard to follow ... >IT tech website Hmm naw man, Hacker News is way more than that. Also, why would I be embarrassed? You are just projecting too much unto others, chill.
moralestapia 2y ago
>and has in fact shown that larvae do not carry over memories through metamorphosis Nope. The 2008 study is "the first to demonstrate conclusively that associative memory survives metamorphosis in Lepidoptera". The article you cited does not disprove this, but rather it shows the brain structure of (some, at least) insects get completely re-arranged before/after their transition to adulthood. For me, this only makes the 2008 study more interesting, since the memories could still persist, even after a completely new brain architecture (!).
- ch4s3 2y ago
  That 2008 study has never been reproduced and the piece in Quanta points towards it being impossible. Our current understanding of memory is that it has a physical basis, so that 2008 study is likely wrong.
  - moralestapia 2y ago
    Appealing to authority is one of the most primitive logical fallacies out there. But if we're going to do that, let's do it properly and choose the peer reviewed article written by experts in the field over a blog post written by a "science communicator". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    - BenFranklin100 2y ago
      Ha. You tried to appeal to authority by insinuating you’re a professional biologist. First, you’re not. You appear to be primarily an app developer, not a researcher. Which is why I mocked you by pulling my 30 years on you.
      - moralestapia 2y ago
        I definitely would not call myself a "professional biologist" as that would make a whole room burst with laughs, lol. So, you're right on that. But I do work as a researcher, publish some interesting papers from time to time and, yes, I think I'm also an "app developer", in the sense that I've made some apps? These kind of arguments you make really come across as quite infantile, to be honest. I'm going to have to stop engaging with you because no substantial value is added to the conversation while you already crossed the line to personal attacks, several times, even after you've been told about it and pointed to this site's rules. Find somebody else to engage with your tantrums, I'm out.

by ch4s3 2y ago

BenFranklin100 2y ago

Further, even if the study had held up, there is a vast difference between memories retained through an individual metamorphosis event, and passing memories along to offspring resulting from sexual reproduction. The OP fails to recognize this obvious point.

ch4s3 2y ago
Yes, I completely agree.
moralestapia 2y ago
>The OP fails to recognize this obvious point. I don't. You're attacking a straw man. You wrote, >Erm…memories — by any biologically reasonable definition— are separate from epigenetic changes. I replied with a study showing the opposite to be true.
- BenFranklin100 2y ago
  No, I said, “There is a vast difference between memories retained through an individual metamorphosis event, and passing memories along to offspring resulting from sexual reproduction. The OP fails to recognize this obvious point.” You’re selectively quoting and then re-arranging the quotes to attempt to make yourself look better. Honestly, for someone to be posting this nonsense with a link to their LinkedIn professional profile in their bio is kind of career suicide. You’ve inadvertently stumbled into an argument on a IT tech website with people who are bona fide life scientists and are embarrassed and are clumsily trying to save face.
  - moralestapia 2y ago
    My career is doing just fine, actually. Like, better than ever and I'm not making this up. Feel free to add me on LinkedIn, I have no issue in people knowing who I am; should I be scared or anything? Lol. You should try not being anonymous, just a suggestion, :). You said: "Memory [...] is separate from epigenetic changes" I replied with a study that seems to suggest otherwise. That's not really hard to follow ... >IT tech website Hmm naw man, Hacker News is way more than that. Also, why would I be embarrassed? You are just projecting too much unto others, chill.

moralestapia 2y ago

>and has in fact shown that larvae do not carry over memories through metamorphosis Nope. The 2008 study is "the first to demonstrate conclusively that associative memory survives metamorphosis in Lepidoptera". The article you cited does not disprove this, but rather it shows the brain structure of (some, at least) insects get completely re-arranged before/after their transition to adulthood. For me, this only makes the 2008 study more interesting, since the memories could still persist, even after a completely new brain architecture (!).

ch4s3 2y ago
That 2008 study has never been reproduced and the piece in Quanta points towards it being impossible. Our current understanding of memory is that it has a physical basis, so that 2008 study is likely wrong.
- moralestapia 2y ago
  Appealing to authority is one of the most primitive logical fallacies out there. But if we're going to do that, let's do it properly and choose the peer reviewed article written by experts in the field over a blog post written by a "science communicator". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  - BenFranklin100 2y ago
    Ha. You tried to appeal to authority by insinuating you’re a professional biologist. First, you’re not. You appear to be primarily an app developer, not a researcher. Which is why I mocked you by pulling my 30 years on you.
    - moralestapia 2y ago
      I definitely would not call myself a "professional biologist" as that would make a whole room burst with laughs, lol. So, you're right on that. But I do work as a researcher, publish some interesting papers from time to time and, yes, I think I'm also an "app developer", in the sense that I've made some apps? These kind of arguments you make really come across as quite infantile, to be honest. I'm going to have to stop engaging with you because no substantial value is added to the conversation while you already crossed the line to personal attacks, several times, even after you've been told about it and pointed to this site's rules. Find somebody else to engage with your tantrums, I'm out.