4 ms·

Erm…memories — by any biologically reasonable definition— are separate from epigenetic changes. No serious researcher would conflate the two, other than perhaps

Erm…memories — by any biologically reasonable definition— are separate from epigenetic changes. No serious researcher would conflate the two, other than perhaps hippy-dippy ‘biologists’ who struggled through ‘Physics for Poets’, as undergrads. Source: Biophysicist for 30 years now.

moralestapia 2y ago
And yet ... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2248710/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2248710/ Btw, read the site guidelines. This is a place for discourse, not berating others.
- ch4s3 2y ago
  Follow up work has not held up the 2008 article you shared[1], and has in fact shown that larvae do not carry over memories through metamorphosis. [1] https://www.quantamagazine.org/insect-brains-melt-and-rewire-during-metamorphosis-20230726/#:~:text=The%20reshuffling%20of%20neurons%20during,don't%20persist%20in%20adults https://www.quantamagazine.org/insect-brains-melt-and-rewire....
  - BenFranklin100 2y ago
    Further, even if the study had held up, there is a vast difference between memories retained through an individual metamorphosis event, and passing memories along to offspring resulting from sexual reproduction. The OP fails to recognize this obvious point.
    - ch4s3 2y ago
      Yes, I completely agree.
    - moralestapia 2y ago
      >The OP fails to recognize this obvious point. I don't. You're attacking a straw man. You wrote, >Erm…memories — by any biologically reasonable definition— are separate from epigenetic changes. I replied with a study showing the opposite to be true.
      - BenFranklin100 2y ago
        No, I said, “There is a vast difference between memories retained through an individual metamorphosis event, and passing memories along to offspring resulting from sexual reproduction. The OP fails to recognize this obvious point.” You’re selectively quoting and then re-arranging the quotes to attempt to make yourself look better. Honestly, for someone to be posting this nonsense with a link to their LinkedIn professional profile in their bio is kind of career suicide. You’ve inadvertently stumbled into an argument on a IT tech website with people who are bona fide life scientists and are embarrassed and are clumsily trying to save face.
        moralestapia 2y ago
        My career is doing just fine, actually. Like, better than ever and I'm not making this up. Feel free to add me on LinkedIn, I have no issue in people knowing who I am; should I be scared or anything? Lol. You should try not being anonymous, just a suggestion, :). You said: "Memory [...] is separate from epigenetic changes" I replied with a study that seems to suggest otherwise. That's not really hard to follow ... >IT tech website Hmm naw man, Hacker News is way more than that. Also, why would I be embarrassed? You are just projecting too much unto others, chill.
  - moralestapia 2y ago
    >and has in fact shown that larvae do not carry over memories through metamorphosis Nope. The 2008 study is "the first to demonstrate conclusively that associative memory survives metamorphosis in Lepidoptera". The article you cited does not disprove this, but rather it shows the brain structure of (some, at least) insects get completely re-arranged before/after their transition to adulthood. For me, this only makes the 2008 study more interesting, since the memories could still persist, even after a completely new brain architecture (!).
    - ch4s3 2y ago
      That 2008 study has never been reproduced and the piece in Quanta points towards it being impossible. Our current understanding of memory is that it has a physical basis, so that 2008 study is likely wrong.
      - moralestapia 2y ago
        Appealing to authority is one of the most primitive logical fallacies out there. But if we're going to do that, let's do it properly and choose the peer reviewed article written by experts in the field over a blog post written by a "science communicator". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
        BenFranklin100 2y ago
        Ha. You tried to appeal to authority by insinuating you’re a professional biologist. First, you’re not. You appear to be primarily an app developer, not a researcher. Which is why I mocked you by pulling my 30 years on you.
        moralestapia 2y ago
        I definitely would not call myself a "professional biologist" as that would make a whole room burst with laughs, lol. So, you're right on that. But I do work as a researcher, publish some interesting papers from time to time and, yes, I think I'm also an "app developer", in the sense that I've made some apps? These kind of arguments you make really come across as quite infantile, to be honest. I'm going to have to stop engaging with you because no substantial value is added to the conversation while you already crossed the line to personal attacks, several times, even after you've been told about it and pointed to this site's rules. Find somebody else to engage with your tantrums, I'm out.
- BenFranklin100 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 2y ago
    I'm late to this, but your comments in this thread broke the HN guidelines extremely badly, not just in this comment but also these others: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40720177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40720177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40713066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40713066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40713015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40713015 I'm not commenting on whether you're right or wrong about biology, obviously—I have no idea. But it's not ok to violate HN's rules like this, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. I appreciate that you've been a biophysicist for 30 years and we certainly want that people with that depth of expertise on HN, but even more important is that you not put down or ridicule others. I know that in the history of science and academia there has at times been a culture of hard-nosed ridicule of others who are deemed to be wrong and/or not knowledgeable enough to enter a discussion. Perhaps that approach is still vital in some professional circles, maybe? I don't know, but I can tell you for sure that on an open internet forum like HN, such an approach just poisons everything it touches. Incidentally, if you do happen to be right, that makes it even worse to post these sorts of attacks, because then you end up giving people a reason to discredit you which has nothing to do with the truth. Lots of past explanation about this if anyone cares: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=truth%20discredit%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor.... You've broken the site guidelines since then too, so this is unfortunately a pattern: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40744320 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40744320 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40739423 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40739423 If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
  - moralestapia 2y ago
    This is definitely over the line. cc @dang?
    - 2y ago

moralestapia 2y ago

And yet ... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2248710/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2248710/ Btw, read the site guidelines. This is a place for discourse, not berating others.

ch4s3 2y ago
Follow up work has not held up the 2008 article you shared[1], and has in fact shown that larvae do not carry over memories through metamorphosis. [1] https://www.quantamagazine.org/insect-brains-melt-and-rewire-during-metamorphosis-20230726/#:~:text=The%20reshuffling%20of%20neurons%20during,don't%20persist%20in%20adults https://www.quantamagazine.org/insect-brains-melt-and-rewire....
- BenFranklin100 2y ago
  Further, even if the study had held up, there is a vast difference between memories retained through an individual metamorphosis event, and passing memories along to offspring resulting from sexual reproduction. The OP fails to recognize this obvious point.
  - ch4s3 2y ago
    Yes, I completely agree.
  - moralestapia 2y ago
    >The OP fails to recognize this obvious point. I don't. You're attacking a straw man. You wrote, >Erm…memories — by any biologically reasonable definition— are separate from epigenetic changes. I replied with a study showing the opposite to be true.
    - BenFranklin100 2y ago
      No, I said, “There is a vast difference between memories retained through an individual metamorphosis event, and passing memories along to offspring resulting from sexual reproduction. The OP fails to recognize this obvious point.” You’re selectively quoting and then re-arranging the quotes to attempt to make yourself look better. Honestly, for someone to be posting this nonsense with a link to their LinkedIn professional profile in their bio is kind of career suicide. You’ve inadvertently stumbled into an argument on a IT tech website with people who are bona fide life scientists and are embarrassed and are clumsily trying to save face.
      - moralestapia 2y ago
        My career is doing just fine, actually. Like, better than ever and I'm not making this up. Feel free to add me on LinkedIn, I have no issue in people knowing who I am; should I be scared or anything? Lol. You should try not being anonymous, just a suggestion, :). You said: "Memory [...] is separate from epigenetic changes" I replied with a study that seems to suggest otherwise. That's not really hard to follow ... >IT tech website Hmm naw man, Hacker News is way more than that. Also, why would I be embarrassed? You are just projecting too much unto others, chill.
- moralestapia 2y ago
  >and has in fact shown that larvae do not carry over memories through metamorphosis Nope. The 2008 study is "the first to demonstrate conclusively that associative memory survives metamorphosis in Lepidoptera". The article you cited does not disprove this, but rather it shows the brain structure of (some, at least) insects get completely re-arranged before/after their transition to adulthood. For me, this only makes the 2008 study more interesting, since the memories could still persist, even after a completely new brain architecture (!).
  - ch4s3 2y ago
    That 2008 study has never been reproduced and the piece in Quanta points towards it being impossible. Our current understanding of memory is that it has a physical basis, so that 2008 study is likely wrong.
    - moralestapia 2y ago
      Appealing to authority is one of the most primitive logical fallacies out there. But if we're going to do that, let's do it properly and choose the peer reviewed article written by experts in the field over a blog post written by a "science communicator". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
      - BenFranklin100 2y ago
        Ha. You tried to appeal to authority by insinuating you’re a professional biologist. First, you’re not. You appear to be primarily an app developer, not a researcher. Which is why I mocked you by pulling my 30 years on you.
        moralestapia 2y ago
        I definitely would not call myself a "professional biologist" as that would make a whole room burst with laughs, lol. So, you're right on that. But I do work as a researcher, publish some interesting papers from time to time and, yes, I think I'm also an "app developer", in the sense that I've made some apps? These kind of arguments you make really come across as quite infantile, to be honest. I'm going to have to stop engaging with you because no substantial value is added to the conversation while you already crossed the line to personal attacks, several times, even after you've been told about it and pointed to this site's rules. Find somebody else to engage with your tantrums, I'm out.
BenFranklin100 2y ago
[flagged]
- dang 2y ago
  I'm late to this, but your comments in this thread broke the HN guidelines extremely badly, not just in this comment but also these others: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40720177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40720177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40713066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40713066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40713015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40713015 I'm not commenting on whether you're right or wrong about biology, obviously—I have no idea. But it's not ok to violate HN's rules like this, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. I appreciate that you've been a biophysicist for 30 years and we certainly want that people with that depth of expertise on HN, but even more important is that you not put down or ridicule others. I know that in the history of science and academia there has at times been a culture of hard-nosed ridicule of others who are deemed to be wrong and/or not knowledgeable enough to enter a discussion. Perhaps that approach is still vital in some professional circles, maybe? I don't know, but I can tell you for sure that on an open internet forum like HN, such an approach just poisons everything it touches. Incidentally, if you do happen to be right, that makes it even worse to post these sorts of attacks, because then you end up giving people a reason to discredit you which has nothing to do with the truth. Lots of past explanation about this if anyone cares: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=truth%20discredit%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor.... You've broken the site guidelines since then too, so this is unfortunately a pattern: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40744320 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40744320 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40739423 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40739423 If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.
- moralestapia 2y ago
  This is definitely over the line. cc @dang?
  - 2y ago