5 ms·

Almost 50% would refuse job offer with no remote work option – survey

83 points by WWWMMMWWW 2y ago

sbelskie 2y ago
The title here is pretty misleading. What the article actually says is that nearly half of Irish jobseekers claim they would refuse a job offer with no remote option.
- mpalmer 2y ago
  Not that I disagree, but would you have commented if it were US jobseekers?
  - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
    Well, HN is something like 70% US people. So "this is for Ireland" is worth pointing out in a way that "this is for US" isn't, because US is kind of the implicit default option here. (It's not US-only, by any means, and info about Ireland is not something we ignore because "nobody cares about that". But it's reasonable to point out that this is not data from the conditions that most people here assume by default.)
    - mpalmer 2y ago
      HN is almost certainly more than 70% white men, but I'm sure they don't assume either of those demographics for things like this. Or perhaps they do!
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - joseda-hg 2y ago
      Are there any public stats on this kind of demographics? Other than IP and the content of comments, I can't think of how would you get that data in this kind of site
      - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
        Um... I've seen such a statistic cited here, but I don't remember the exact number. I tried to be conservative - I'm pretty sure it wasn't below 70%, but as I say, I don't remember precisely. Now that you ask, I'm also not sure of the source of that statistic. I'm pretty sure dang knows, but he may not be the source of the information. It may have just been someone's informed guess, or uninformed guess for that matter. I do know that there are lots of people not from the US here, and that you shouldn't assume, for example, that English is someone's first language. Also shouldn't assume US vs England even for native English speakers (so don't attempt to "correct" British spelling).
  - sbelskie 2y ago
    Yes. I actually think the Irish thing is less misleading then the fact that the headline implies some certainty about what are obviously just claims that may or may not be related to the decisions jobseekers would actually make when presented with an offer.
prepend 2y ago
I wonder if we’re just fragmenting into two workforces. The kind of work that can be done remotely (programming, design, sales, etc) and the kind they can’t (retail, weird bosses and extroverts who feel they must be in office). So it makes sense that 50% won’t consider. I recruited for some software dev positions recently and applicants said that non-remote offices were just a different philosophy.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
  I suppose it makes sense. Musk tried to put a label around it by calling that group 'laptop class'. I have some pet theories, but those center around commercial real estate.
  - spacecadet 2y ago
    Musk who? Smells bad to me.
    - spacecadet 2y ago
      Musk Rat dat who.
  - gravescale 2y ago
    It's a fun theory, and sounds rather plausible at first blush, but do so many of the upper management class really have so many commercial real estate investments that they're willing to break the effectiveness of their core business? I know of at least one company with an RTO drive but leased the office, and the land owner doesn't have external shareholders. Also the company paid for quite a snack supply, so backsides in seats actively cost a relatively small but still not trivial amount of money.
    - karmajunkie 2y ago
      there’s at least some municipalities that are essentially bribing employers with tax incentives to RTO to prop up dependent businesses like restaurants.
b3ing 2y ago
Irish workers, it’s 29% globally and doesn’t say the % for the US
- Chris2048 2y ago
  And Ireland, especially Dublin, and other large towns/cities are experiencing a housing crisis; And I can attest to the poor state of the traffic network for commuting (by European standards, I know Americans are more willing to spend hours commuting) so commuting in is less viable.
millerm 2y ago
I'm a remote software dev, and I prefer it. I won't go back to that silly commute garbage so that I can carry my laptop from my house to my cold, lifeless, work setup. If I could work on hardware, spend all day soldering, and building things with my hands, I would gladly go into the biz. If I could go back to having hardware at the office I could build, install stuff on, and control again... Oh how I wish I could do something like that instead. I'm so tired of the code. Simply dragging me to an office, so I can talk to other people that aren't in the office via email, chat, video etc. is friggin' dumb.
jsiepkes 2y ago
As always; There is often a difference between what people say they will do and what people actually do once it costs them money.
- busterarm 2y ago
  Ireland has one of the worst real estate markets in the world right now. That's certainly the reason for the high percentage.
  - hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
    A lot of Irish people in their 20's-50's moved to Austin, TX in the past 2 years.
barryrandall 2y ago
People whose jobs could only be done on-site were somewhat recently all laid off at the same time, and a lot of those people never want to be in that position again. Other people whose jobs could only be done on-site were deemed essential enough to require them to work, but not essential enough to be treated with minimal decency by the public, and a lot of those people never want to be in that position again.
poikroequ 2y ago
One aspect I don't see mentioned in the article is relocation. Remote work allows you to live virtually wherever you want. Having to go to an office often means having to live near a big city with overpriced subpar housing, possibly leaving family and friends behind. That's a huge deal breaker for me personally.
- idontwantthis 2y ago
  Or moving your family if you have one. I guess I’m still young for recruiters to expect me to have kids so I get contacted about jobs in other states like it’s no thing.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  My initial reaction was that WFH allows employees to work for anyone in the country, and therefore employers are opposed because it lets the national market instead of the local market determine the price they have to pay for talent, and that employers are "fixing" the problem by demanding in-office. On second glance, though, employees also face a national market rather than a local one, and can be underbid for the job by anyone in the country. Maybe employers like that, and employees don't. But maybe it's like this: WFH means that employees can leave more easily. If you work in the office, and you're in my town, there's only so many places you can go. I can mistreat you (bad bosses, bad raises, bad working conditions), and your options are somewhat limited, and you're more likely to stay. But if you're full remote, the whole country is open to you (without even a relocation), so you're more likely to not take it. So I suspect that maybe bad bosses and bad companies want to avoid WFH, because remote employees are less constrained to put up with the bad conditions.
  - poikroequ 2y ago
    It's complex and there is no single reason for employers to be for or against WFH.
  - The_Colonel 2y ago
    Except these big RTO companies are mostly located in huge cities. Also, working currently in the office does not make it more difficult to leave and find a full remote job. It seems funny to me how people always look for the ulterior motives and give basically no chance to the explanation CEOs give (collocation leads to a more productive organization).
hollasch 2y ago
One of the most significant aspects of this issue is too often ignored. Inevitably, people focus on the _location_ aspect of this topic, and its impacts. Equally significant in my experience is the fact that my workspace at home is significantly superior to the toy office at work. Work offices have been undergoing constant degradation for decades now. Today, an "office" is too frequently a randomly-assigned tiny surface with cheap-as-possible computer & peripherals, in a loud space, from which I interact with team members over video. Imagine being a machinist where you get barely serviceable tools at work, versus a fully-equipped custom workshop at home. For me, this isn't about Covid and recent events — it's the end state of a work environment that has seen decades of dismantling.

83 points by WWWMMMWWW 2y ago

The title here is pretty misleading. What the article actually says is that nearly half of Irish jobseekers claim they would refuse a job offer with no remote option.

mpalmer 2y ago
Not that I disagree, but would you have commented if it were US jobseekers?
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  Well, HN is something like 70% US people. So "this is for Ireland" is worth pointing out in a way that "this is for US" isn't, because US is kind of the implicit default option here. (It's not US-only, by any means, and info about Ireland is not something we ignore because "nobody cares about that". But it's reasonable to point out that this is not data from the conditions that most people here assume by default.)
  - mpalmer 2y ago
    HN is almost certainly more than 70% white men, but I'm sure they don't assume either of those demographics for things like this. Or perhaps they do!
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - joseda-hg 2y ago
    Are there any public stats on this kind of demographics? Other than IP and the content of comments, I can't think of how would you get that data in this kind of site
    - AnimalMuppet 2y ago
      Um... I've seen such a statistic cited here, but I don't remember the exact number. I tried to be conservative - I'm pretty sure it wasn't below 70%, but as I say, I don't remember precisely. Now that you ask, I'm also not sure of the source of that statistic. I'm pretty sure dang knows, but he may not be the source of the information. It may have just been someone's informed guess, or uninformed guess for that matter. I do know that there are lots of people not from the US here, and that you shouldn't assume, for example, that English is someone's first language. Also shouldn't assume US vs England even for native English speakers (so don't attempt to "correct" British spelling).
- sbelskie 2y ago
  Yes. I actually think the Irish thing is less misleading then the fact that the headline implies some certainty about what are obviously just claims that may or may not be related to the decisions jobseekers would actually make when presented with an offer.

prepend 2y ago

I wonder if we’re just fragmenting into two workforces. The kind of work that can be done remotely (programming, design, sales, etc) and the kind they can’t (retail, weird bosses and extroverts who feel they must be in office). So it makes sense that 50% won’t consider. I recruited for some software dev positions recently and applicants said that non-remote offices were just a different philosophy.

A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
I suppose it makes sense. Musk tried to put a label around it by calling that group 'laptop class'. I have some pet theories, but those center around commercial real estate.
- spacecadet 2y ago
  Musk who? Smells bad to me.
  - spacecadet 2y ago
    Musk Rat dat who.
- gravescale 2y ago
  It's a fun theory, and sounds rather plausible at first blush, but do so many of the upper management class really have so many commercial real estate investments that they're willing to break the effectiveness of their core business? I know of at least one company with an RTO drive but leased the office, and the land owner doesn't have external shareholders. Also the company paid for quite a snack supply, so backsides in seats actively cost a relatively small but still not trivial amount of money.
  - karmajunkie 2y ago
    there’s at least some municipalities that are essentially bribing employers with tax incentives to RTO to prop up dependent businesses like restaurants.

b3ing 2y ago

Irish workers, it’s 29% globally and doesn’t say the % for the US

Chris2048 2y ago
And Ireland, especially Dublin, and other large towns/cities are experiencing a housing crisis; And I can attest to the poor state of the traffic network for commuting (by European standards, I know Americans are more willing to spend hours commuting) so commuting in is less viable.

millerm 2y ago

I'm a remote software dev, and I prefer it. I won't go back to that silly commute garbage so that I can carry my laptop from my house to my cold, lifeless, work setup. If I could work on hardware, spend all day soldering, and building things with my hands, I would gladly go into the biz. If I could go back to having hardware at the office I could build, install stuff on, and control again... Oh how I wish I could do something like that instead. I'm so tired of the code. Simply dragging me to an office, so I can talk to other people that aren't in the office via email, chat, video etc. is friggin' dumb.

jsiepkes 2y ago

As always; There is often a difference between what people say they will do and what people actually do once it costs them money.

busterarm 2y ago
Ireland has one of the worst real estate markets in the world right now. That's certainly the reason for the high percentage.
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
  A lot of Irish people in their 20's-50's moved to Austin, TX in the past 2 years.

barryrandall 2y ago

People whose jobs could only be done on-site were somewhat recently all laid off at the same time, and a lot of those people never want to be in that position again. Other people whose jobs could only be done on-site were deemed essential enough to require them to work, but not essential enough to be treated with minimal decency by the public, and a lot of those people never want to be in that position again.

poikroequ 2y ago

One aspect I don't see mentioned in the article is relocation. Remote work allows you to live virtually wherever you want. Having to go to an office often means having to live near a big city with overpriced subpar housing, possibly leaving family and friends behind. That's a huge deal breaker for me personally.

idontwantthis 2y ago
Or moving your family if you have one. I guess I’m still young for recruiters to expect me to have kids so I get contacted about jobs in other states like it’s no thing.
AnimalMuppet 2y ago
My initial reaction was that WFH allows employees to work for anyone in the country, and therefore employers are opposed because it lets the national market instead of the local market determine the price they have to pay for talent, and that employers are "fixing" the problem by demanding in-office. On second glance, though, employees also face a national market rather than a local one, and can be underbid for the job by anyone in the country. Maybe employers like that, and employees don't. But maybe it's like this: WFH means that employees can leave more easily. If you work in the office, and you're in my town, there's only so many places you can go. I can mistreat you (bad bosses, bad raises, bad working conditions), and your options are somewhat limited, and you're more likely to stay. But if you're full remote, the whole country is open to you (without even a relocation), so you're more likely to not take it. So I suspect that maybe bad bosses and bad companies want to avoid WFH, because remote employees are less constrained to put up with the bad conditions.
- poikroequ 2y ago
  It's complex and there is no single reason for employers to be for or against WFH.
- The_Colonel 2y ago
  Except these big RTO companies are mostly located in huge cities. Also, working currently in the office does not make it more difficult to leave and find a full remote job. It seems funny to me how people always look for the ulterior motives and give basically no chance to the explanation CEOs give (collocation leads to a more productive organization).

hollasch 2y ago

One of the most significant aspects of this issue is too often ignored. Inevitably, people focus on the _location_ aspect of this topic, and its impacts. Equally significant in my experience is the fact that my workspace at home is significantly superior to the toy office at work. Work offices have been undergoing constant degradation for decades now. Today, an "office" is too frequently a randomly-assigned tiny surface with cheap-as-possible computer & peripherals, in a loud space, from which I interact with team members over video. Imagine being a machinist where you get barely serviceable tools at work, versus a fully-equipped custom workshop at home. For me, this isn't about Covid and recent events — it's the end state of a work environment that has seen decades of dismantling.