4 ms·

Proton is transitioning towards a non-profit structure

113 points by andrewinardeer 2y ago

jonaharagon 2y ago
I've always worried that Proton might succumb to the enshittification that seems to eventually plague all tech companies. This news makes me a lot more optimistic that won't be the case.
tabiv 2y ago
I think this is a good change for Proton. I hope it leads them to change some of their misleading privacy marketing.
- crmd 2y ago
  Can you elaborate? I’m a proton user who chose them based on their privacy claims.
  - leosanchez 2y ago
    I think he talking about e-mails to and from proton mail and other email providers are not really encrypted. Only mails between proton mail are encrypted. That would be my guess.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - chuckadams 2y ago
      Individual emails are only encrypted if the sender encrypts them, yes, and it's only enabled by default between protonmail users. However, the mailbox as a whole is encrypted at rest with some one-way method that doesn't allow proton to decrypt it: https://proton.me/blog/zero-access-encryption https://proton.me/blog/zero-access-encryption
      - aquatica 2y ago
        > However, the mailbox as a whole is encrypted at rest The server still receives from other servers and from the client (if the email is not going to a proton account) the plain text, so nothing prevents them from making a copy.
        riku_iki 2y ago
        how other providers (gmail) work in this case?..
        chuckadams 2y ago
        email is not Signal, and Proton cannot magically turn on encryption for every sender in the world.
    - zolbrek 2y ago
      In one instance they gave up the IP address of an email user to law enforcement (with a warrant I believe).
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - obelus 2y ago
        They only have to comply with Swiss courts, but they're pretty up front about what they can and can't do, including suggesting Tor for anonymity, and the difference between Mail and VPN in Switzerland (VPN is no logs).
      - haakon 2y ago
        More on that here: https://proton.me/blog/climate-activist-arrest https://proton.me/blog/climate-activist-arrest They swiftly went on to win a court ruling that would prevent this specific situation from repeating. https://proton.me/blog/court-strengthens-email-privacy https://proton.me/blog/court-strengthens-email-privacy
drannex 2y ago
This is quite possibly the best possible news I have heard yet from proton, and makes me feel much more likely to recommend them. This is wonderful news.
- nicce 2y ago
  I am still angry for them for their blackmail-based payment model back in years. For those who don't know, you were able to get credits for Proton from Humble Bundle. You are able to use those credits to use "Pro" plan. Well, once your credits ended, without any notification, your credits started to go negative. After certain point of negativity, your account was locked for "unpaid" bills. There was no any information that this would happen. You weren't able to access you email unless you paid the bill.
- forwardemail 2y ago
  [dead]
xinayder 2y ago
This is interesting, but still a bit worrying that they reserved the right of doing an IPO if they "feel like we need more resources to fight for an open internet". I would say I'd like to believe they are being truthful to their words, but I find it hard to believe they have a non-profit stance when they shove ads about their own products on your inbox by default, having annoying popups and trying to push you to upgrade your Proton plan.
- layer8 2y ago
  A nonprofit doesn’t mean that profits aren’t pursued, it means that any profits have to be put to the organization’s purpose instead of flowing to private beneficiaries.
  - whoopdedo 2y ago
    But what about when the organization's purpose is to assist a private beneficiary, namely the for-profit arm of the corporation? If the non-profit only does work for one client, is it really a separate entity?
AtlasBarfed 2y ago
I'm sorry for being stupid but I cannot tell for the life of me from either their foundation web page or the link what they actually do. The only proton I know of is the 3D API translation layer. I think it's in steam.
- Winsaucerer 2y ago
  On that page is a "products" menu link up the top (or under the hamburger button on mobile). It shows you the various products that they have.
- layer8 2y ago
  There is an About Us link towards the bottom of the page, and the company name Proton AG is spelled out in the article as well as at the bottom of the page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_AG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_AG
- meatjuice 2y ago
  From “their foundation web page” > Take control of your data with our end-to-end encrypted email, VPN, cloud storage, password manager and calendar. I think it’s pretty obvious?
- protonmail 2y ago
  Hi! No, this is not the same Proton, we are a privacy-first email, cloud storage, VPN, calendar and password manager provider: https://proton.me/ https://proton.me/ To learn more about our transition to the non-profit structure, check this article: https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation
ignoramous 2y ago
tldr: Proton AG (a for-profit) is now wholly-owned by Proton Foundation (a non-profit) that will put 1% of its annual profits into a VC-like fund. > In the past 10 years, we have launched five services and reached 100 million people. In the process, we have also grown from a team of 3 to a team of 500. Phenomenal in a space where there's an endless list of companies either dead or ceaselessly struggling.
- ni10c 2y ago
  I don’t think it ever says wholly owned. My understanding is that the three founders have donated their shares to the Foundation, but they didn’t own 100% of the company. Likely >50% but not 100%
  - tempay 2y ago
    To my reading it’s only part of their shares and probably results in the foundation being the biggest single shareholder while still only having a minority stake.

I've always worried that Proton might succumb to the enshittification that seems to eventually plague all tech companies. This news makes me a lot more optimistic that won't be the case.

tabiv 2y ago

I think this is a good change for Proton. I hope it leads them to change some of their misleading privacy marketing.

crmd 2y ago
Can you elaborate? I’m a proton user who chose them based on their privacy claims.
- leosanchez 2y ago
  I think he talking about e-mails to and from proton mail and other email providers are not really encrypted. Only mails between proton mail are encrypted. That would be my guess.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - chuckadams 2y ago
    Individual emails are only encrypted if the sender encrypts them, yes, and it's only enabled by default between protonmail users. However, the mailbox as a whole is encrypted at rest with some one-way method that doesn't allow proton to decrypt it: https://proton.me/blog/zero-access-encryption https://proton.me/blog/zero-access-encryption
    - aquatica 2y ago
      > However, the mailbox as a whole is encrypted at rest The server still receives from other servers and from the client (if the email is not going to a proton account) the plain text, so nothing prevents them from making a copy.
      - riku_iki 2y ago
        how other providers (gmail) work in this case?..
      - chuckadams 2y ago
        email is not Signal, and Proton cannot magically turn on encryption for every sender in the world.
  - zolbrek 2y ago
    In one instance they gave up the IP address of an email user to law enforcement (with a warrant I believe).
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - obelus 2y ago
      They only have to comply with Swiss courts, but they're pretty up front about what they can and can't do, including suggesting Tor for anonymity, and the difference between Mail and VPN in Switzerland (VPN is no logs).
    - haakon 2y ago
      More on that here: https://proton.me/blog/climate-activist-arrest https://proton.me/blog/climate-activist-arrest They swiftly went on to win a court ruling that would prevent this specific situation from repeating. https://proton.me/blog/court-strengthens-email-privacy https://proton.me/blog/court-strengthens-email-privacy

drannex 2y ago

This is quite possibly the best possible news I have heard yet from proton, and makes me feel much more likely to recommend them. This is wonderful news.

nicce 2y ago
I am still angry for them for their blackmail-based payment model back in years. For those who don't know, you were able to get credits for Proton from Humble Bundle. You are able to use those credits to use "Pro" plan. Well, once your credits ended, without any notification, your credits started to go negative. After certain point of negativity, your account was locked for "unpaid" bills. There was no any information that this would happen. You weren't able to access you email unless you paid the bill.
forwardemail 2y ago
[dead]

xinayder 2y ago

This is interesting, but still a bit worrying that they reserved the right of doing an IPO if they "feel like we need more resources to fight for an open internet". I would say I'd like to believe they are being truthful to their words, but I find it hard to believe they have a non-profit stance when they shove ads about their own products on your inbox by default, having annoying popups and trying to push you to upgrade your Proton plan.

layer8 2y ago
A nonprofit doesn’t mean that profits aren’t pursued, it means that any profits have to be put to the organization’s purpose instead of flowing to private beneficiaries.
- whoopdedo 2y ago
  But what about when the organization's purpose is to assist a private beneficiary, namely the for-profit arm of the corporation? If the non-profit only does work for one client, is it really a separate entity?

AtlasBarfed 2y ago

I'm sorry for being stupid but I cannot tell for the life of me from either their foundation web page or the link what they actually do. The only proton I know of is the 3D API translation layer. I think it's in steam.

Winsaucerer 2y ago
On that page is a "products" menu link up the top (or under the hamburger button on mobile). It shows you the various products that they have.
layer8 2y ago
There is an About Us link towards the bottom of the page, and the company name Proton AG is spelled out in the article as well as at the bottom of the page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_AG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_AG
meatjuice 2y ago
From “their foundation web page” > Take control of your data with our end-to-end encrypted email, VPN, cloud storage, password manager and calendar. I think it’s pretty obvious?
protonmail 2y ago
Hi! No, this is not the same Proton, we are a privacy-first email, cloud storage, VPN, calendar and password manager provider: https://proton.me/ https://proton.me/ To learn more about our transition to the non-profit structure, check this article: https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation https://proton.me/blog/proton-non-profit-foundation

ignoramous 2y ago

tldr: Proton AG (a for-profit) is now wholly-owned by Proton Foundation (a non-profit) that will put 1% of its annual profits into a VC-like fund. > In the past 10 years, we have launched five services and reached 100 million people. In the process, we have also grown from a team of 3 to a team of 500. Phenomenal in a space where there's an endless list of companies either dead or ceaselessly struggling.

ni10c 2y ago
I don’t think it ever says wholly owned. My understanding is that the three founders have donated their shares to the Foundation, but they didn’t own 100% of the company. Likely >50% but not 100%
- tempay 2y ago
  To my reading it’s only part of their shares and probably results in the foundation being the biggest single shareholder while still only having a minority stake.