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Something I didn't appreciate before working in a very large tech company was just how much of a difference a good configuration language makes. In my previous

Something I didn't appreciate before working in a very large tech company was just how much of a difference a good configuration language makes. In my previous company, configuration was a mix of YAML, JSON, and hardcoded values in Python. While this worked fine, deficiencies in YAML/JSON meant that we often had additional tooling around those files to generate more config. At Google, languages like Starlark are used to build entire software stacks that run at configuration-time. Configuration with a base language, libraries, domain-specific languages, team-specific utilities, conventions, linters, and the whole thing gets built into a package that can be run by some much more general server. That level of complexity is unnecessary in many places, but the one thing I would take on elsewhere is to pick a good, capable, config language early, and then use it for as much config as possible. Starlark is a good option if you like Python-ish stuff, Jsonnet is also pretty nice.

natnat 2y ago
Starlark is nice but Google also has GCL...
- verdverm 2y ago
  Both Starlark and CUE are projects that evolved from former Googlers learnings about BCL and GCL aiui, Starlark is closer to the internal languages while CUE takes a different philosophical approach (logical language that ensures correctness at scale)
- esprehn 2y ago
  Google is a mess of configuration languages. Starlark, GCL, piccolo, textproto, yaml, the weird subset of starlark boq uses. From the outside it seems a lot more uniform than it is.
  - danpalmer 2y ago
    It's a mess, yes, but it's better than most places I've seen that end up using a bunch of YAML/JSON and then poorly defined custom tools to mangle things together. Also I'd argue that there's a good core in Google's config stack: everything resolving to a proto at the bottom, textproto for "raw" representations, and having one language above that. If we could standardise on that it would be good, but of course that's unlikely. Does Boq use a subset of Starlark? I thought it was Piccolo. I've always assumed Piccolo predated Starlark and that Starlark was essentially the external-first rewrite with some learnings.
    - laurentlb 2y ago
      From what I remember, Piccolo uses a Python interpreter. Blaze also used to call a Python interpreter to evaluate BUILD files, but this is something I've changed. Starlark is unrelated to Piccolo, it started as an interpreter written inside Blaze. Starlark was created just before we open-sourced Bazel (because I didn't want to open-source the Python preprocessing). Edit: indeed, Boq's manifest.bzl is Starlark.
      - esprehn 2y ago
        Boq has a lot of restrictions on what you can do (ex. No user functions except a tiny allow list they own). It lives in a manifest.bzl file though, and I'm pretty sure uses the golang starlark interpreter.
      - miki123211 2y ago
        > (because I didn't want to open-source the Python preprocessing). Can you explain why? I'm not trying to criticize anybody here, I'm just curious about the reasoning behind a decision to open source one but not the other.
        laurentlb 2y ago
        It was a complete mess, hard to maintain the code, with scalability and performance problems. The semantics were very error-prone because it combined two interpreters (Python interpreter, optional, as a preprocessing step) followed by the interpreter in Bazel. Bazel started a Python process for each BUILD file to preprocess. If two BUILD files were using the same bzl file, that bzl file would be parsed/evaluated twice. In a graph with lots of dependencies, it was causing a lot of redundant work. It's a bit like #include vs modules in C++: Starlark can evaluate a dependency file once, and provide the result for each BUILD file. Python can be hard to sandbox, and we got multiple security reports about exploits. Interestingly, Facebook Buck went through the same way. They originally copied the Python preprocessing approach. When we open-sourced Bazel, the Buck team took our Starlark (aka Skylark) interpreter, and started the migration. See https://buck.build/concept/skylark.html https://buck.build/concept/skylark.html
  - laurentlb 2y ago
    Google is trying to standardize on a few configuration languages: GCL (because it was too hard to migrate away from it), Starlark (when BCL is not suitable) and Text proto (for things that don't need logic). It used to be a complete mess, but a plan was written a couple of years ago. So there's hope of improvement.
    - danpalmer 2y ago
      That's good to hear, but sad that I (as a SWE/SRE) haven't heard of the plan! Maybe I've been living under a rock, but knowing that I should be building new projects with these and not, say, Piccolo, would be nice. Updating codelabs to reflect this where there are multiple options would also be nice, IIRC the CDP codelab still uses Piccolo, but could probably use GCL fairly easily?
    - ithkuil 2y ago
      Interesting to see that GCL still lives on. Does it have a debugger now? I worked there a decade ago and we were trying out the "gcl2" reimplementation that was based on an actual formal specification of the languages. The semantics were subtly different and we couldn't switch our complex config to it quite yet back then. I wonder if the experiment succeeded or you're back on to the implementation-defined language semantics
  - Rebelgecko 2y ago
    Plus bcl, ncl, OWNERS, piccolo, SDL, and probably dozens more
nvarsj 2y ago
Do people actually like jsonnet and that style of embedding a programming language inside a data format? Reminds me of the days of XML programming - it's just awful to work with and barely comprehensible to beginners.
- jpgvm 2y ago
  It's much less of an embedding than you think. I think of it more as borrowing enough JS syntax that JSON is valid jsonnet. Apart from that though it's own lazy functional language.

natnat 2y ago

Starlark is nice but Google also has GCL...

verdverm 2y ago
Both Starlark and CUE are projects that evolved from former Googlers learnings about BCL and GCL aiui, Starlark is closer to the internal languages while CUE takes a different philosophical approach (logical language that ensures correctness at scale)
esprehn 2y ago
Google is a mess of configuration languages. Starlark, GCL, piccolo, textproto, yaml, the weird subset of starlark boq uses. From the outside it seems a lot more uniform than it is.
- danpalmer 2y ago
  It's a mess, yes, but it's better than most places I've seen that end up using a bunch of YAML/JSON and then poorly defined custom tools to mangle things together. Also I'd argue that there's a good core in Google's config stack: everything resolving to a proto at the bottom, textproto for "raw" representations, and having one language above that. If we could standardise on that it would be good, but of course that's unlikely. Does Boq use a subset of Starlark? I thought it was Piccolo. I've always assumed Piccolo predated Starlark and that Starlark was essentially the external-first rewrite with some learnings.
  - laurentlb 2y ago
    From what I remember, Piccolo uses a Python interpreter. Blaze also used to call a Python interpreter to evaluate BUILD files, but this is something I've changed. Starlark is unrelated to Piccolo, it started as an interpreter written inside Blaze. Starlark was created just before we open-sourced Bazel (because I didn't want to open-source the Python preprocessing). Edit: indeed, Boq's manifest.bzl is Starlark.
    - esprehn 2y ago
      Boq has a lot of restrictions on what you can do (ex. No user functions except a tiny allow list they own). It lives in a manifest.bzl file though, and I'm pretty sure uses the golang starlark interpreter.
    - miki123211 2y ago
      > (because I didn't want to open-source the Python preprocessing). Can you explain why? I'm not trying to criticize anybody here, I'm just curious about the reasoning behind a decision to open source one but not the other.
      - laurentlb 2y ago
        It was a complete mess, hard to maintain the code, with scalability and performance problems. The semantics were very error-prone because it combined two interpreters (Python interpreter, optional, as a preprocessing step) followed by the interpreter in Bazel. Bazel started a Python process for each BUILD file to preprocess. If two BUILD files were using the same bzl file, that bzl file would be parsed/evaluated twice. In a graph with lots of dependencies, it was causing a lot of redundant work. It's a bit like #include vs modules in C++: Starlark can evaluate a dependency file once, and provide the result for each BUILD file. Python can be hard to sandbox, and we got multiple security reports about exploits. Interestingly, Facebook Buck went through the same way. They originally copied the Python preprocessing approach. When we open-sourced Bazel, the Buck team took our Starlark (aka Skylark) interpreter, and started the migration. See https://buck.build/concept/skylark.html https://buck.build/concept/skylark.html
- laurentlb 2y ago
  Google is trying to standardize on a few configuration languages: GCL (because it was too hard to migrate away from it), Starlark (when BCL is not suitable) and Text proto (for things that don't need logic). It used to be a complete mess, but a plan was written a couple of years ago. So there's hope of improvement.
  - danpalmer 2y ago
    That's good to hear, but sad that I (as a SWE/SRE) haven't heard of the plan! Maybe I've been living under a rock, but knowing that I should be building new projects with these and not, say, Piccolo, would be nice. Updating codelabs to reflect this where there are multiple options would also be nice, IIRC the CDP codelab still uses Piccolo, but could probably use GCL fairly easily?
  - ithkuil 2y ago
    Interesting to see that GCL still lives on. Does it have a debugger now? I worked there a decade ago and we were trying out the "gcl2" reimplementation that was based on an actual formal specification of the languages. The semantics were subtly different and we couldn't switch our complex config to it quite yet back then. I wonder if the experiment succeeded or you're back on to the implementation-defined language semantics
- Rebelgecko 2y ago
  Plus bcl, ncl, OWNERS, piccolo, SDL, and probably dozens more

nvarsj 2y ago

Do people actually like jsonnet and that style of embedding a programming language inside a data format? Reminds me of the days of XML programming - it's just awful to work with and barely comprehensible to beginners.

jpgvm 2y ago
It's much less of an embedding than you think. I think of it more as borrowing enough JS syntax that JSON is valid jsonnet. Apart from that though it's own lazy functional language.